My odd and bad experience with meditation

[trollo]

Hello Dr Mariano, i must say you re the very first Dr i see that is not biased against meditation… i hope you will responde to this thread.

I had a paradoxical and harmful reaction to meditation, consequences of whom i still have.
I m trying to understand this story from a medical point of view instead forgetting it or interpreting it as a spiritual thing like a classical yogi would suggest. Moreover, my general situation is really a looong story and very complex… i actually wonder if in my case TM practice could have in some way boosted my dopamine production because maybe that could explain the many disturbs and improvements i had, like: focal dystonia, hyperactivity and general boost of energy, very high sex drive (libido) while i generally always suffered of low libido, muscular ticks, chest pain and arrhythmia, headache, severe insomnia, my depression and letargia issue was totally wiped out, problems with urination frequency and cystitis, and others. The most of them went away if i stopped meditation practice, and depression and letargia came back, and i did this trial several times. Now I m no more doing meditation (that i began in 2009) since february but some issues still persist like chest pain, mild headache and, worse of all, Dystonia ( the focal one).
This is just a very short and incomplete explanation though, but i came here to your forum also because i ever looked like if i could suffer from long time adrenal fatigue…

[DrMariano2]

@trollo 6726 wrote:

I had a paradoxical and harmful reaction to meditation, consequences of whom i still have.
I m trying to understand this story from a medical point of view instead forgetting it or interpreting it as a spiritual thing like a classical yogi would suggest. Moreover, my general situation is really a looong story and very complex… i actually wonder if in my case TM practice could have in some way boosted my dopamine production because maybe that could explain the many disturbs and improvements i had, like: focal dystonia, hyperactivity and general boost of energy, very high sex drive (libido) while i generally always suffered of low libido, muscular ticks, chest pain and arrhythmia, headache, severe insomnia, my depression and letargia issue was totally wiped out, problems with urination frequency and cystitis, and others. The most of them went away if i stopped meditation practice, and depression and letargia came back, and i did this trial several times. Now I m no more doing meditation (that i began in 2009) since february but some issues still persist like chest pain, mild headache and, worse of all, Dystonia ( the focal one).

You described several symptoms:

• Depression
• Lack of energy
• Low Libido
• Hyperactivity
• Focal dystonia
• Muscular tics
• Chest pain
• Arrhythmia
• Headache
• Insomnia
• Urinary Frequency
• Cystitis

1. You need to define what each of symptoms means. For example, what is Focal dystonia? What is Cystitis? What is Arrhythmia?

2. Which symptoms were present before starting Transcendental Meditation?

3. Which symptoms improved while practicing Transcendental Meditation?

4. Which are new symptoms while practicing Transcendental Meditation?

[trollo]

Of course Dr Mariano, you re right. I didn’t want to overcharge you with details all in once…
Well my problems nowadays are mostly about depression, anxiety depersonalization and fatigue, but better i shortly explain my story…
I had a sudden psychiatric onset at 16 in 1993. I had serious Obsessive compulsive disorder and depression. I ve been 5 years on psychotherapy without benefit untill 1998. In that period OCD was a bit better but depression get worse. During college (2002) i had another breakdown and went back to my old psychiatrist/psychotherapist and restart psychotherapy and started antidepressants for the first time in my life. No antidepressant ever gave me any real benefit. Since 2003-2004 i began to feel that i was weaker principally in my upper parts (arms) and i found difficulties playing guitar and doing my favourite sport (martial arts) that i restarted in 2002 (when i felt a little better paradoxically because of my crisis…) after i stopped it in 1993 when i began to feel bad. My physical shape get slowly worse till 2005-2006.
I’m vegetarian (ovo-lacto vegetarian) but i became vegetarian a year after my troubles began in 1993 just for ethical reasons, i actually loved meat and i always ate a lot of fat food before in my life.
In 2006 i had another breakdown while i was taking Fluoxetine that i really didn’t toletate well and that caused me a lot of bad side effects (i suspected that fluoxetine could have been related to this hypersomnia issue but doctor disagreed) and i began to suffer of serious hypersomnia, used to sleep 12 to 14 hours a day. Drs led me to a new Psychiatrist but i alway felt this issue like a physical problem cause it was unrelated to my mood. Anyway another psychiatrist made me start another drugs theraphy. Very strong, 1 antidepressant+1antiepileptic+1antipsychotic (i’ve never been diagnosed as psychotic, the antipsychotic i took, Abilify, is often prescribed to cure OCD, in fact my ocd improoved a lot). It was early 2007. I began to suffer of light coordination problems playing guitar principally in my left index finger.
In 2008 i decided to stop any drugs. during this year i had another serious breakdown. I restarted drugs with another psychiatrist. Here comes the oddest part of my story
In early 2009 i discovered Trancendental Meditation. Just after a month i began to practice it i had a gorgeous improvement. Even my problems playing guitar were gone. But meditation began to gave some side effects. I were hyperexcitated and began to suffer of insomnia. Anyway i decide to stop another time drugs wich i thought to be the cause. After a month (when i had fallen ill) it happened the onset of the musician’s focal-dystonia in my left index finger. With time passing by meditation caused me other issues like: muscular contractions principally in my left eye and lips, chest pain and aritmia, neck glandular pain. More since 2008 i had strange flu that never ends, and in 2011 i had mononucleosis that lasted for 4-5 monthes… i began to think that maybe meditation was just making coming out some pre-existing issue of which those symptoms were… i discovered to have a mild b12 deficiency and b6 and EPA and ALA dificiencies with i’m curing with supplements prescribed to me by Dr O’Flaherty of Dublin (who was suggested to me by Bill Walsh)
When i say ‘chestpain’ i intened a light general pain in my chest maybe in the intercostal muscles because when i deeply expire i feel it more clearly. For arrhythmia i intend a feeeling of weight in my throat and extrasystoles. Cystitis i mean infection of the urinary trait; about this the correspondence with meditation was astonishing because in summer 2010 i had a strong pain attack while meditating and i wasn’t suffering of this in that period. I also must say that when i began meditation after a few month i changed my antidepressant from paroxetine to duloxetine, and after that i began to have all that incredible meditation effects. I say ‘meditation effects’ and not ‘duloxetine effects’ because i several times tried to continue duloxetine stopping meditation and all those symptoms used to go away, more i always returned to my previous condition of depression, apaty, lack of energy, and hypersomnia. Even when Dr doubled my duloxetine dose nothing changed, just meditation changed my condition… i tried also to meditate without taking any drugs and i had more side effects with less good effects (i must say that i considered being super-energised like a good thing but actually i don’t know if it were at all because i couldn’t control my behaviours).
Dystonia is Focal dystonia mainly in my left hand but i found out (since about a year ago) that i got it in my right hand as well…. specifically it could be considered a ‘musician’s dystonia’.
I found to have many of AF symptoms, as example i can’t stand stress or even a bit of fear, when for example somebody make me get really angry and agitated and even a little bit scared i begin to tremble and almost lose physical control and strenght… time ago i used to think i was simply fearful but recently it happened to me even when i was mainly angry…

@DrMariano 6727 wrote:

You described several symptoms:

• Depression
• Lack of energy
• Low Libido
• Hyperactivity
• Focal dystonia
• Muscular tics
• Chest pain
• Arrhythmia
• Headache
• Insomnia
• Urinary Frequency
• Cystitis

1. You need to define what each of symptoms means. For example, what is Focal dystonia? What is Cystitis? What is Arrhythmia?

2. Which symptoms were present before starting Transcendental Meditation?

3. Which symptoms improved while practicing Transcendental Meditation?

4. Which are new symptoms while practicing Transcendental Meditation?

[DrMariano2]

To help clarify what you are stating, here is a timeline based on the information your posts:

---

SYMPTOMS PRIOR TO ILLNESS:

• lack of libido

---

1993:

First episode of illness when 16 years old

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• obsessive-compulsive disorder – What does OCD mean? What symptoms are present?
• depression
• apathy
• lack of energy
• urinary frequency
• recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)

---

1994:

DIET: change to Ovo-Lacto Vegetarian

---

1993 to 1998:

TREATMENT: psychotherapy: no response

Symptoms improved over time.

---

2002:

Second episode of illness or exacerbation of initial illness

TREATMENT: psychotherapy: response?
TREATMENT: antidepressants: no response. Which antidepressants?

---

2003 to 2004:

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• muscular weakness – particularly in upper arms

---

2006:

Third episode of illness or exacerbation of initial illness

TREATMENT: Fluoxetine: intolerable due to side effects – what side effects?

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• hypersomnia (12-14 hours of sleep a day)

TREATMENT: antidepressant + anticonvulsant + Abilify
RESPONSE: Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder improved “a lot”

---

2007:

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• muscular incoordination – particularly of left index finger

---

2008:

STOPPED MEDICATION TREATMENT.

Fourth episode of illness or exacerbation of initial illness

TREATMENT: medications restarted: Which medications?

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• chronic flu symptoms – lasting to the present, which flu symptoms?

---

2009:

TREATMENT: Duloxetine (stopped Paroxetine)
TREATMENT: Transcendental Meditation

RESPONSE: “after a month” of treatment, had a “gorgeous improvement”
SYMPTOMS STOPPED:

• depression
• apathy
• lack of energy
• hypersomnia
• lack of libido
• urinary frequency
• recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)
• muscular weakness
• muscular incoordination

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
• severe insomnia
• very high libido

TREATMENT: STOPPED MEDICATION TREATMENT
TREATMENT: CONTINUED Transcendental Meditation

Fifth episode of illlness or exacerbation of initial illness

SYMPTOMS STOPPED:

• lack of libido

SYMPTOMS CONTINUED:

• excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
• severe insomnia
• very high libido

SYMPTOMS RETURNED:

• depression
• apathy
• lack of energy
• hypersomnia
• urinary frequency
• recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)
• muscular weakness
• muscular incoordination

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• focal dystonia – affecting left index finger, left hand, right hand
• muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
• chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing
• arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat and extrasystoles” – Is this verified by ECG? Anxiety can cause illusion of arrhythmia.
• neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts?
• strong pain attack – while meditating – Where did the pain occur in the body? Did it occur again since then?

TREATMENT: RESTARTED Medication treatment
TREATMENT: CONTINUED Transcendental Meditation

RESPONSE:
SYMPTOMS STOPPED:

• depression
• apathy
• lack of energy
• hypersomnia
• urinary frequency
• recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)
• muscular weakness
• muscular incoordination
• lack of libido

SYMPTOMS RETURNED:

• excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
• severe insomnia
• very high libido
• focal dystonia – affecting left index finger, left hand, right hand
• muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
• chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing
• arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat and extrasystoles” – Is this verified by ECG? Anxiety can cause illusion of arrhythmia.
• neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts?

TREATMENT: CONTINUED medication treatment
TREATMENT: STOPPED Transcendental Meditation

RESPONSE:
SYMPTOMS STOPPED:

• excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
• severe insomnia
• very high libido
• focal dystonia – affecting left index finger, left hand, right hand
• muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
• chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing
• arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat and extrasystoles” – Is this verified by ECG? Anxiety can cause illusion of arrhythmia.
• neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts?

SYMPTOMS RETURNED

• depression
• apathy
• lack of energy
• hypersomnia
• urinary frequency
• recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)
• muscular weakness
• muscular incoordination
• lack of libido

TREATMENT: CONTINUED medication treatment
TREATMENT: RESTARTED Transcendental Meditation

RESPONSE:
SYMPTOMS STOPPED:

• depression
• apathy
• lack of energy
• hypersomnia
• urinary frequency
• recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)
• muscular weakness
• muscular incoordination
• lack of libido

SYMPTOMS RETURNED:

• excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
• insomnia
• very high libido
• focal dystonia – affecting left index finger, left hand, right hand
• muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
• chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing
• arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat and extrasystoles” – Is this verified by ECG? Anxiety can cause illusion of arrhythmia.
• neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts?

TREATMENT: STOPPED Medication treatment
TREATMENT: CONTINUED Transcendental Meditation

RESPONSE:
SYMPTOMS CONTINUED:

• excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
• severe insomnia
• very high libido

What happened to the other symptoms such as depression, lack of energy, apathy, etc.?

TREATMENT: RESTARTED Medication treatment
TREATMENT: CONTINUED Transcendental Meditation

RESPONSE:
SYMPTOMS STOPPED:

• depression
• apathy
• lack of energy
• hypersomnia
• urinary frequency
• recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)
• muscular weakness
• muscular incoordination
• lack of libido

SYMPTOMS CONTINUED:

• excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
• severe insomnia
• very high libido
• focal dystonia – affecting left index finger, left hand, right hand
• muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
• chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing
• arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat and extrasystoles” – Is this verified by ECG? Anxiety can cause illusion of arrhythmia.
• neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts?

---

2011:

MONONUCLEOSUS: lasted 4-5 months.

• Was this verified by lab test?

LAB TEST:

• What are the actual full test results? Blood or urine or saliva?

• Vitamin B12 deficiency
• Vitamin B6 deficiency
• Omega-3 EPA deficiency
• Alpha Lipoic Acid deficiency

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• difficulty tolerating external stress (which causes fear, anger, agitation) – this causes trembling, weakness
• anxiety / fear
• anger outbursts
• agitation
• headache

---

2012:

TREATMENT: CONTINUED medication treatment
TREATMENT: STOPPED Transcendental Meditation

RESPONSE:
SYMPTOMS STOPPED:

• excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
• severe insomnia
• very high libido
• muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
• arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat and extrasystoles” – Is this verified by ECG? Anxiety can cause illusion of arrhythmia.
• neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts?

SYMPTOMS RETURNED:

• depression
• apathy
• lack of energy
• hypersomnia
• urinary frequency
• recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)
• muscular weakness
• muscular incoordination
• lack of libido

SYMPTOMS CONTINUED:

• difficulty tolerating external stress (which causes fear, anger, agitation) – this causes trembling, weakness
• anxiety / fear
• anger outbursts
• agitation
• headache
• focal dystonia – affecting left index finger, left hand, right hand
• chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• depersonalization – What does depersonalization mean?

---

Note: see my post regarding the term “adrenal fatigue”. This is a term I no longer use since it is inaccurate. The condition described by the term is not an independent illness. It essentially is a subset of the problems seen in other illnesses (such as depression, anxiety, and other mood disorders or other physical illness). It is more accurate to use these other illnesses than to use the term “adrenal fatigue”.

Mental illnesses are generally complex illnesses with multiple underlying causes (pathophysiologies).

When a person has a treatment resistant condition, this means one or several underlying problems have not been found or addressed in treatment.

The general areas to assess for problems include the person’s psychological framework, environment and relationships, nervous system, endocrine system, immune system, metabolism (including every intracellular process and gene expression) and nutrition. Other areas of the body may also need assessment since problems can affect mental function. These include the gastrointestinal system, urogenital system, respiratory system, etc. Problems may by divided into general levels including psychosocial problems, psychological problems, structural problems, intercellular signaling problems, and metabolic-nutritional problems.

Any individual intervention such as antidepressant treatment or behavioral intervention such as meditation can affect several processes causing cascade effects affecting even more processes in the body. Some of these effects can be good, some can be bad. Any individual intervention may improve some underlying problems but can cause problems when interacting with underlying problems it does not address.

For example, if a person has depression where some of the underlying problems include suboptimal serotonin and suboptimal iron, then adding an antidepressant to increase serotonin signaling may excessively reducing dopamine production when that person already has problems with dopamine production because of suboptimal iron. The antidepressant, of course, won’t address suboptimal iron. Such a person may then develop problems with the drop in dopamine signaling including anxiety, irritability, restlessness, agitation, insomnia, dystonia, etc. Thus, the addition of the antidepressant uncovered and worsened the preexisting problem of suboptimal iron.

For example, if the depression includes underlying factors such as testosterone deficiency, suboptimal thyroid hormone, hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysregulation, then adding testosterone without first addressing other problems may cause the person to worsen in condition rather than improve since exogenous testosterone can reduce thyroid signaling and suppress ACTH production and adrenal cortex activity.

The solution is to discover as many of the underlying causes of the mental illness as possible. This includes suboptimal rather than just deficiencies in signaling or nutrition. Then to address each cause in treatment (including nutritional and signaling optimization, addressing nervous system, immune system problems, etc.) with consideration of how each process interacts in order to have a more comprehensive and effective treatment that minimizes negative interactions and results.

[Jean]

OUPS. Dr Mariano, I should like to have the same brain prefrontal cortex of you.
This post is amazing.
Best regards.

[DrMariano2]

Thanks, Jean.

Note that an Ovo-Lacto Vegetarian Diet is non-nutrient dense diet. It is missing numerous nutrients – particularly in modern times. Over time, these nutrient deficits build up and impair physiologic and mental function. Some, like B12 deficiency, can cause permanent damage to the nervous system.

One would have to use raw milk to make up its nutritional deficits or be aware of its weaknesses and take supplements to make up for the deficits. Ironically, the nutrients missing may be made from animal products.

[trollo]

Thanks Doctor for your big effort to make order into my post, i will repost yours with my corrections:

---

SYMPTOMS PRIOR TO ILLNESS:

• NO lack of libido… i was just an introverted kid with social problems, i had a lot of passion that i used to express in my hobbies like Martial arts, drawing and comics. I used to have a very powerful imagination but tended to be out of the world, in my own world, being ingenuous, very shy, scared to get adult. I had a very active brain, maybe too much, but wasn’t very good at school because i couldn t take attentiion to anything who wasn’t for my own amusement or interest, although i was a discreet student but had to do more efforts than others…

---

1993:

First episode of illness when 16 years old

NEW SYMPTOMS:

• obsessive-compulsive disorder; mainly obsessed by cleanliness, whashing hands, keeping my things in perfect shape and far from others hands, totally scared about feces and urine, feared of being killed during the night when sleeping (used to closed with key my room s door in the night) and generally paranoid
• depression
• apathy

  ---

  1994:

  DIET: change to Ovo-Lacto Vegetarian

  ---

  1993 :
  TREATMENT: psychotherapy: no response

  1997-98:

  just OCD improved over time a bit, but depression got worse, i began to suffer of emotional flattening like a mild depersonalization (i think this has been in some degree a psychoterapy side effect)

  ---

  2002:

  Second episode of illness or exacerbation of initial illness caused by sentimental issues

  TREATMENT: psychotherapy: NO RESPONSE
  TREATMENT: antidepressants: no response. Which antidepressants? I can try to tell the ones i remember: in order of time Seropram, Efexor, Venlafaxina (never had side effects until that) and in 2006 Fluoxetine that i assumed for 4 monthes

  ---

  2003 to 2004:

  NEW SYMPTOMS:

  • muscular weakness and less stamina during gym – particularly in upper arms

  ---

  2006:

  This wasn’t a real new breakdown… i had a bad period but not so bad… in fact as i always complained with my psychiatrist-psychoterapist the total lack of effect of antidepresants he then suggested to try with Fluoxetine

  TREATMENT: Fluoxetine: intolerable due to side effects – swollen and painful nipples, strong esophagitis attacks, then, after these disturbs when away, i began to suffer of hypersomnia (12-14 hours of sleep a day)

  NEW SYMPTOMS:

  • hypersomnia (12-14 hours of sleep a day)

  I left my old Doctor and staied without any drug for about 3 monthes, than i went to another psychiatrist

  TREATMENT: antidepressant + anticonvulsant + Abilify
  RESPONSE: Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder improved “a lot” but i noticed a light coordination issue to my left index finger when playng guitar ( february 2007)

  ---

  2007:

  NEW SYMPTOMS:

  • very light muscular incoordination – particularly of left index finger

  ---

  2008:

  STOPPED MEDICATION TREATMENT by myself with bad side effects like severe insomnia.

  Fourth episode of illness or exacerbation of initial illness (used to have strong persistent anxiety quite panic continuously night and day for several monthes)

  TREATMENT: medications restarted: Which medications? (Paroxetine and Tolep from a new Psychiatrist)

  NEW SYMPTOMS:

  • chronic flu symptoms – lasting to the present (flue used to last longer than before, like weeks not days), which flu symptoms? (light inner shivers, sluggisness, temp. about 37.3/4 farheneit)

  ---

  2009:

  TREATMENT: Duloxetine (stopped Paroxetine, but continued Tolep)
  TREATMENT: Transcendental Meditation

  RESPONSE: “after a month” of treatment, had a “gorgeous improvement” I began TM in April (under Paroxetine) and had real good improvements for about a week, then as i discontinued practice they stopped they started again in may when i was already under duloxetine
  
  SYMPTOMS that STOPPED:

  • depression
  • apathy
  • lack of energy
  • lack of libido
  • muscular weakness
  • muscular incoordination

  NEW SYMPTOMS:

  • excessive energy – “hyperexcited” and can’t stay still
  • severe insomnia
  • very high libido
  • urinary infections and continuous need of urinate[/B][/B]

  TREATMENT: STOPPED MEDICATION TREATMENT (stopped just duloxetine at the minimum dose, but not Tolep)
  TREATMENT: CONTINUED Transcendental Meditation

  Immediately with drugs interruption i felt ill for 1 month, then when i recovered i had a sudden dystonia onset just one morning playing guitar

  Fifth episode of illlness or exacerbation of initial illness

  SYMPTOMS STOPPED:

  • excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
  • severe insomnia
  • very high libido

  SYMPTOMS RETURNED:

  • lack of libido
  • depression
  • apathy
  • lack of energy
  • hypersomnia
  • muscular weakness
  • muscular incoordination

  NEW SYMPTOMS:

  • focal dystonia – affecting left index finger, left hand, right hand (just in 2011 i noticed that i had dystonia in my right hand waching a video on musician’s dystonia in the plectrum holding hand)
  • muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
  • chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing (NO, when i contract chest muscles expiring air i feel the pain more clearly, that’s the reason if i think it s an intercolstal muscles pain…)
  • arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat” and extrasystoles – Is this verified by ECG (yes a cardiologist verified arrhytmia without any heart abnormality so considered them as harmless)? Anxiety can cause illusion of arrhythmia NO ILLUSIONS .
  • neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts? (the 2 bean shaped glands under the chin sides)
  • strong pain attack – while meditating (BUT THIS HAPPENED IN SUMMER 2010)– Where did the pain occur in the body? Did it occur again since then? (the pain occurred in the urinary tract, along with a flue sansation, felt very bad. I slept for 1 hour and then everything disappeared… after a month i went to hospital because pain returned and they cured it with antibiotics)

  STOPPED MEDITATION IN JANUARY 2010

  2010 winter
  TREATMENT: RESTARTED Medication treatment (AS DULOXETINE DOUBLED DOSE and Tolep) but i restarted TM a few monthes after drugs, just when i restarted TM i had the return of the many effects you describe, i restarted TM in summer 2010
  TREATMENT: CONTINUED Transcendental Meditation

  RESPONSE:
  SYMPTOMS STOPPED (just when i restarted Meditation):

  • depression
  • apathy
  • lack of energy
  • hypersomnia
  • lack of libido

  SYMPTOMS RETURNED (just when i restarted Meditation):

  • excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
  • severe insomnia
  • veeeeeery high libido (used to think about sex during sleep and had to wake up to masturbating)
  • focal dystonia – affecting left index finger, left hand, right hand (FOCAL DYSTONIA NEVER STOPPED SINCE THE FIRST ONSET ON 2009)
  • muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
  • chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing
  • arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat and extrasystoles”
  • neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts?
  • urinary frequency
  • recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)

    These are unrelated to Meditation and are always present exept for summer 2009:

  • muscular weakness
  • muscular incoordination

  2011

  TREATMENT: STOPPED ANY DRUGS
  TREATMENT: STOPPED Transcendental Meditation on late monthes (after mononucleosis)

  RESPONSE:
  SYMPTOMS STOPPED (just after i stopped meditation… obviously during mononucleosis i had highs and downs):

  • excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
  • severe insomnia
  • very high libido
  • muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
  • arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat and extrasystoles”
  • neck glandular pain
  • urinary frequency
  • recurrent urinary tract infection (“cystitis”)

  SYMPTOMS RETURNED mildly

  • depression
  • apathy
  • lack of energy
  • muscular weakness
  • muscular incoordination
  • lack of libido

  TREATMENT: RESTARTED medication treatment (paroxetine and tolep)
  TREATMENT: RESTARTED Transcendental Meditation just for a few monthes in late 2011 then STOPPED UNTIL NOW

  RESPONSE:
  SYMPTOMS STOPPED just for a few weeks during late 2011 when i was doing meditation but side effects of meditation got worsemildly:

  • depression
  • apathy
  • lack of energy
  • hypersomnia
  • lack of libido

  SYMPTOMS RETURNED mildly:

  • excessive energy – “hyperexcited”
  • insomnia
  • very high libido
  • muscle tics – affecting left eye, lips
  • chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing (this didn t go away anymore)
  • arrhythmia – a sensation of “weight on my throat and extrasystoles” – Is this verified by ECG? Anxiety can cause illusion of arrhythmia.
  • neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts?

  TREATMENT:STOPPED Transcendental Meditation (IN EARLY 2012)(but before i did several trials with similar meditation kinds… and had strange results…)

  RESPONSE:
  SYMPTOMS CONTINUED:

  • moderatedly energy – “hyperexcited”
  • light insomnia
  • low high libido

  What happened to the other symptoms such as depression, lack of energy, apathy, etc.? returned but in a mild form
  

  2012

  TREATMENT: RESTARTED Medication treatment (paroxetine and lyrica)
  TREATMENT: NEVER RESTARTED Transcendental Meditation

  RESPONSE:
  SYMPTOMS RETURNED IN A MILD FORM IF COMPARED TO 2006:

  • depression
  • apathy
  • lack of energy
  • hypersomnia
  • muscular weakness
  • muscular incoordination
  • lack of libido

  SYMPTOMS CONTINUED:

  • LIGHT insomnia
  • focal dystonia – affecting left index finger, left hand, right hand THIS NEVER WENT AWAY
  • chest pain – mild, worsened by breathing
  • neck glandular pain: what glands? what hurts?

  ---

  DETAILS

  2011:

  MONONUCLEOSUS: lasted 4-5 months.

  • Was this verified by lab test? YES, OF COUSE, VERIFIED BY LABTESTS AND AN INTERNIST

  LAB TEST:

  • What are the actual full test results? Blood or urine or saliva?BLOOD (HBV tests)
  • Vitamin B12 deficiency
  • Vitamin B6 deficiency
  • Omega-3 EPA deficiency
  • Alpha Lipoic Acid deficiency

  NEW SYMPTOMS:

  • difficulty tolerating external stress (which causes fear, anger, agitation) – this causes trembling, weakness ALWAYS HAD THIS DISTURBS SINCE A KID, BUT RECENTLY IT GOTS A LOT WORSE
  • anxiety / fear MILD
  • anger outbursts
  • agitation
  • headache

[trollo]

About what i mean for depersonalization… never undrstood clearly what depersonalization should be but I mean this:

lack of emotion and emotional reactions to things and events, lack of enthusiasm and interest in anything that was fundamental before (NOT following a concurrent worsening of sadness or anxiety or despair), feeling like if ALL my feelings were ‘muted’ and i mean good but bad ones as well, like if somebody had put a ‘cap’ blocking my personality; consequently i felt like i didn’t know anymore WHO i were, not in the meaning of not recognising myself into the mirror or into my body but in the sense that i didn’t know anymore what was my personality….. i used to feel like detached from the world, like an alien, like if i wasn’t ruled from the same psichological rules that rule the rest of the living world.
After i finished the psychotherapy in 1998 i began slowly to reduce this disturbs (that began in 1996-97) tring to mentally work to deconditioning my mind from a lot of things that the psychotherapist forced me to believe… after 2-3 years of this kind of work i improved a bit; experiences of life helped me to find a bit myself. But just with Meditation i clearly had the feeling of really had taken away that hatred ‘cap in the head’ the i used to feel… untill i did meditation…

[DrMariano2]

Generally, meditation has positive effects.

However, in a complex illness, where there are multiple underlying causes of the illness, meditation may only address part of these problems, leaving the other ones untreated. This may then result in a negative effect from either the interaction with medication and these untreated factors or a negative effect from medication uncovering these untreated factors.

As an analogy, when a person is treated with an antidepressant for depression, sometimes the antidepressant may trigger a manic episode when interacting with remaining untreated causes of the illness or when uncovering the remaining problems of the illness.

Manic symptoms may include excessive energy, agitation, insomnia or loss of the need for sleep, impulsiveness, hypersexuality, excessive goal-directed activity that can lead to harm (e.g. excessive spending or gambling), etc.

Sometimes the diagnosis is changed, under circumstances like this, from depression to bipolar disorder, if warranted, to help understand the condition better and its subsequent evaluation and treatment.

The solution is to continue to look for as many of these underlying factors as possible, then to address each one, to achieve a more effective treatment.

Generally, I prefer keeping an effective behavioral intervention, such as meditation or exercise or emotional regulation skills since the benefits may significantly outweigh the negatives in the long run. If there is a negative effect, then the causes needs to be found and addressed before restarting the behavioral intervention. Just like hypertension or asthma may need to be addressed prior to engaging in exercise, the other factors contributing to a mood disorder that results in a negative interaction with the behavioral intervention need to be addressed first.

[trollo]

Yes, very clear, thanks for your response Doctor.
I must say that what you said is the most effective explanation of what i experienced i ve ever heard… more, i never heard a single little try to explain my experience, neither the people who taught to me meditation (an ex-TM teachers association) tried to explain it but they rather denied my disturbs and discharged the responsibility on me saying that i was doing it in a wrong way….
I arrived to the same conclusion than you (so it seems to me…) suspecting that in reality meditation just made emerge some underlying issues (i mean physical issues, not imaginary or psychological ones) because maybe it kind of forced the body to function well but the body couldn’t do it actually.
I asked to you if meditation could have in some way boosted my dopamine ( i understand this is a reductive way of imagining it) because i read often that dopamine excess (like the side effects of drugs who act on dopamine (i think duloxetine lightly acts on dopamine receptors…)) could lead to behaviours like excessive energy, agitation, insomnia or loss of the need for sleep, impulsiveness, hypersexuality, excessive goal-directed activity that can lead to harm (e.g. excessive spending or gambling), etc. and in my case even improved physical skills and stamina and caused a reduction, if not disappearance, of previously present coordination deficits, ike my ‘subclinical’ dystonia, who became really evident just after the 2009 onset (after which it have been clearly diagnosed by more than one neurologist)
Anyway, i d really like to continue with Meditation in the future, when i will have addressed the issues that could have caused all those problems, because it has been SO EFFECTIVE that it would be a terrible shame if i couldn’t anymore practice it…

[DrMariano2]

Meditation can increase dopamine signaling. It does more than that since it also affects norepinephrine, serotonin, proinflammatory signaling, etc.

Dopamine, by itself, tends to reduce agitation, makes one sleepy, causes fatigue, lowers blood pressure, etc.

Any behavioral change is the sum of many signals and metabolic changes occurring in an individual.

[trollo]

” This may then result in a negative effect from either the interaction with medication and these untreated factors or a negative effect from medication uncovering these untreated factors.”

So maybe are you saying that Meditation and medications could have in some way interacted??? If so it should have been with duloxetine, because it happened during and immediately after duloxetine interruption that all those troubles began (most important than anyother, DYSTONIA)…
could it be possible in your opinion?

[trollo]

I found time ago this on the web :

“The antidepressant properties of duloxetine are due to blocking the reuptake of serotonin and possibly also noradrenalin within the central nervous system; It is also considered a less potent inhibitor of dopamine reuptake.”

[trollo]

Also, i think, urinary disturbs and infections are among the duloxetine side effects… am i right?

[DrMariano2]

@trollo 6754 wrote:

Also, i think, urinary disturbs and infections are among the duloxetine side effects… am i right?

Rarely. I would look for other causes that are more common and rule them out first. A urinary infection requires a bacterial source for infection and an explanation of how it can go up the urinary tract – especially in a male.

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