[Shaolin]

CFS is too complicated to explain here. Adrenal fatigue doesnt exist, its something like HPA dysfunction/suppression. Very common in amphetamine/cocaine abusers, higly stressed individuals mentally or physically and in some others who have environmental chemical exposures and so on.
CFS is a neuro-immune disease, the immune nature is so much affected that a person may get HIV like infections in the process. CFS patients have normal or nearly normal cortisol levels, its a central HPA dysfunction rather than an adrenal output problem. CFS patients have altered serotonin metabolism and really exhausted noradrenaline and dopamine stores. Very complex disease. Treatment is mostly antivirals/immune stimulants- at least those help the most, exercise and cognitive behavioral therapy along with some neuropeptides. Hormones dont help much really- unless proven that the individual has lack of those or of their underlying mechanisms controlling their production. TRH is or could be an exception by means of restoring some of the neurotransmitter levels. Still problems in CFS are too many to explain

[Shaolin]

I ve been there too mate. Had many forms of dysautonomia.
First when i had depleted my testosterone levels with finasteride and increased my noradrenaline levels with super sets in the gym. It send me to sympathetic type of overtraining and each time i got out of bed i had 3 times the normal pulse rate.

That lasted for around 8 months i was bedridden. Terrible

Then i took a bunch of drus like cortisone, cipro and got much worse. In my process of recovery i had to improvise so took large amounts of coffee which offcourse woke my sleeping HPA axis but put me in a state of complete dysautonomia and autonomic nervous system overreaction, i guess it was the time when i hit really low levels of both epinephrine and norepinephrine because when i was stading out of bed i couldnt hear my heart beat or pulse rate it was soooo weak and i felt like dying. I stayed in bed another 6 months to get better and slowly walked myself out of this problem somehow.

Out of my head what has happened to you is this.

Not only did you supplement with normal to large amounts of thyroid meds for your 25mg of cortisol to withstand but you added T shots (why??) which pull up your metabolism the 2nd 3d day so much that 25mg of cortisol are not enough to bring it down/or actually support it aswell with your heart function. Thats why you got those symptoms. A T injection potentially spiked the cortisol and used it all up, i have done that to myself too and know first hand. I took a T booster when my HPA axis was completely dyfucntional and was working at say 10-20%. I then started to feel energetic for the first days but each time i went to exercise my heart rate would go mad and it wouldnt stop – plus i would get fatigued in 20 minutes despite the strength derived from the temporary testosterone boost.

All those hormones work perfectly tuned in a healthy body. You tried to outsmart it but instead you put on too much strain on your adrenals.

Dr. M can comment more scientifically on this, but i think that is the basis of your problem.
Dont know or cant say exactly what happened to your catecholamines after that

[Shaolin]

Sooner or later i will be coming to seeing you Dr. M and i will be very curious to see how you can restore someones downregulated HPA with SSRIs.
I think and seen on myself, that those drugs work only during the initial active high stress/high noradrenaline output periods, but i guess that when the HPA is downregulated and “locks” to a lower level i think an SSRI would be rather harmful than assisting in any way, but i only have some years of experience and only experiment on myself whilst you have seen thousands of patients, plus we are all different patients…Anyways i suppose that you use them in conjuction with other medication or in differing doses, because each and every time i took an SSRI i only got worse, and i mean way worse like hypoglycemic, sleepless, agitated, and nervous. Maybe i didnt use them long enough, but how can i withstand the SSRI extra fatigue superimposed on my own debilitating fatigue and weakness from CFS??

Plus i dont understand how you dont worry about atrophying someones adrenal glands with an SSRI, since thats whats supposed to be happening after some months of use with them as i have read over and over again, and that would coincide with lowering of the HPA axis activity wouldnt it ???

Who knows..

[Shaolin]

Each time i use an SSRI i get testicular pain and shrinkage (if use is prolonged) offcourse i am in a state of very fragile Testosterone to DHT production and since dht is needed for maintaining testicular and surrounding glandular and organ mass it can be understood why this happens. The problem is that SSRIs i think are overused and overprescribed while they should be given only to people who are in very bad mental situation and in fear of commiting suicide or doing harm to themselves

[Shaolin]

Are those values of cortisol on Wilsons adrenal dynamite?? What does this product contain, i have seen it once in the past but not really interested in glandulars apart from armour.

Cortisol values look ok to a bit higher than normal..

I always wondered if during the first years of post viral syndrome i had higher or lower cortisol levels. I guess, depending on my immune status they must have been a bit lower, just slightly but then never tested back then. Nevertheless i only felt tired in the mornings and major symptom was IBS and difficulty studying for prolonged periods of time. This however depends, theres people who have been infected with EBV or Cytomegalovirus or HHV6 or stealth viruses or combinations of those viruses and had much more debilitating symptoms than me..

Dr. M have you treated CFS patients and managed to improve their higher intellectual capabilities somehow?? Im really interested in that, since i wanna get back to the 8-10 hours studying a day. Now its maximally 2 hours and this is so low quality studying i keep forgetting things and get dizziness and confusion 🙁

I guess in my case a bit of dhea or some other slight anabolic hormone could help me get much better, never tried it though up untill i got finasteride in my body and this REALLY messed things up.

I could live ok with post viral syndrome, just couldnt perform or compete with others in the university like before i had to go slowly on studying not overpressure my self like before but i could at least play sports and work. Now after finasteride,overtraining and adrenal fatigue i cant do a lot ,just sit around and wait to see if things improve 🙁 I hope i change this soon because its unbearable

post more tests if you have man, blood tests and so on

its very difficult to see from just them saliva tests what might be going on

* i have also considered in the past to take an antiviral like Valganciclovir but dont know which virus exactly hit me, i presume something but am not sure, need to do some testing. Anyways now i first need to fix hormones

[Shaolin]

Gu3vara how did you get all this problems??? hypogonadism/adrenal issues especially

[Shaolin]

What do you mean HPA function?? it helps if noradrenaline/stress levels are high to control the stress response. Yet nowadays antidepressants are used more for that reason. Are you referring to low HPA function, maybe it can help there too if you are still under high stress levels..

[Shaolin]

Have you read through hose twobooks in the past, i think they have very valuable regarding Brain, MEtabolism, Hormones and Chronic Fatigue.

-Hormones Brain and Behaviour

http://www.infibeam.com/Books/info/Donald-W-Pfaff/Hormones-Brain-and-Behavior-Five-Volume-Set/012532104X.html

-Tuning the Brain- Principles and Practices of neurosomatic medicine

[url]http://www.infibeam.com/Books/info/Jay-A-Goldstein/Tuning-the-Brain-Principles-and-Practice-of/078902246X.html
[/url]

[Shaolin]

@DrMariano 813 wrote:

Urinary metabolites are accurate. They give you a consistent number. The question is not of accuracy. The question is whether or not the result is meaningful.

When it comes to urinary metabolites of the catecholamines, unfortunately, I have yet to see any meaning in them as it applies to behavior which is different from examining Norepinephrine, Dopamine, and Epinephrine directly. Both Monoamine Oxidase and Catechol-O-Methyltransferase are in the central nervous system AND body. Thus, the metabolites don’t tell where they come from. I’d love to have someone show me something different. Please, pretty please with sugar on it. 🙂

Dr. M to me urine levels dont help so much decide whether i had high norepinephrine or not, since suffering from irritable bowel syndrome, makes it difficult to excrete all the available urine. Somedays i do, someother days when there is heavier bowel continence this becomes a very inaccurate method. I did several urinetests and found really inconsistent results, (despite the fact that i new norepinephrine levels where ultra high – i couldnt watch tv for more than 2-3 minutes at that time, thats how stress i was)

Then i read about plasma catecholamine levels and found a lab in the other side of my ocuntry to measure them. They didnt do the tests correctly though since i was supposed to

-have them levels measured with a catheter installed rather than poking me every time
-didnt do all the necessary steps of testing (only did 2 out of 4). One measurement came after relaxing for someminutes laying down on a bed, the second after running on a threadmill with fast pace (i managed to run 5-6 minutes before collapsing-really docs where shocked they said i suffer from a strange type of sympatheticotonia)- and instead of taking the second measurement while on my feet after doing the threadmill run they made me lie down again????? (for what i didnt understand) and then 1 minute later they took the measurement. But my major problem back at that time was that i couldnt STAND or WALK. When i laid down i felt better i tried to explain they couldnt get the point. Experienced labs are crucial in helping you in such cases.

Nevertheless plasma levels in both instances (lying and after exercise) where quite higher than the highest normal range.

I guess if i did the measurement after standing on my feet for 5 minutes or so (which was impossible to do due to exhaustion) the norepinephrine level would be shocking

*Lately though i have something different, and so surprised how my body changes. My last relapse, after drinking 1 cup of coffee 3 days in a row caused me to have very weak pulse when walking. That wasnt the case before. I suspect epinephrine or and norepinephrine values are low now, but wouldnt that affect my blood pressure more?? My pulse rate drops when i walk around or when i try to run and i feel dead exhausted. Maybe i exhausted my adrenal medullary signals.

Your writings are so accurate, i couldnt find these sort of issues anywhere else being discussed.

[Shaolin]

Dr. M what do you mean by progesterone being a 5-AR ?? I didnt quite understand that

[Shaolin]

@hardasnails1973 716 wrote:

I been dealing with severe constipation for the past 6 years and nothing has been able to resolve it. I have tried every possible remedy out there and nothing has resolved it completely.

Causes I have come up with
1. Fiber – rule out 30 grams a day 50% soluable 50% insoluable
2. EFA imbalances – Fats are balanced in 4:1 ratio and also taking in sat fats from organic butter and also EVCO, animal fats from beef.
3. Hormones – Potential causes (low thyroid. high estrodial) When I get over 3.3 FT3 I am good, but with this change in armour formulation it knocked me for a loop.
4. neurotransmitters – This is where I think it lies, but more so not for receptors but malasirption
5. Gut inflammation- THIS IS THE CAUSE IMO due to excess of bad bacteria that has never resolved.
6. nutrients deficiency- Nutrients are supplied through clean diet and supplementation
Electrolyte imbalance may be possible as get about 2000 mgs of potassium a day and higher sodium because of low adrenals.
7. hidden celiac –

When dealing with constipation how are the neurotransmitters involved in gut motility?
Can too much or not enough norephinepherine shut down the digestive tract?

I have had urine test done all have come back flat lines low with dopamine, adrenaline, norephipherine, serotonin. GABA and PEA where only ones that where normal. Each year I do them they are getting lower and lower.

Thanks for all the help

Do you have IBS??

Have you tried AGIOLAX from Madaus?? major helper, probably the best for irritable bowel syndrome

http://www.madaus.de/Agiolax.173.0.html (not intention to advertise, just to help- it helped me get back in normal rhythms for many many years)

too complicated to tell about neurotransmitters and gut. I think serotonin causes constipation unless in high doses. Norepinephrine causes peristaltic stimulation, so drinking some strong coffee might help, but it all has to do with proper HPTA function, if thyroid doesnt work optimally then it is a problem. I had serious IBS for years but managed to get better with exercise, proper diet and the agiolax. Weight lifting helps surely.

Doesnt armour help you ???
I was hoping to solve my constipation problems for once and for all with proper armour supplementation.

Also some antibiotics helped me sometimes, but they are not the solution. IBS is a low grade inflammatory situation, ive done biopsies and it shows elements of chronic unspecific constipation

[Shaolin]

@DrMariano 676 wrote:

The problem I have when using GABA with patients is that the dose necessary to help reduce anxiety or help sleep was so high that it would last too long and cause daytime fatigue and oversedation. These effects would be intolerable in a functional person.

GABA doesn’t have as much of a problem with cortisol as Melatonin has.

Couldnt agree more, tried diazepam and was the only thing to help me with adrenal fatigue. But most of the day i was sedated,tired and sleepy Its not great help, just some vere urgent times or unbearable ones.

Dr. M you think there will be some guideline to treat adrenal fatigue conditions in the future??
Its a killer situation

[Shaolin]

Thanks Dr. M for reestablishing in my mind the damage noradrenaline did to me.

It all started from finasteride. when i was just 24 yrs old

This drug lowered my HPG and testosterone output with the following years (despite discontinuine use). I tried to overcompensate by doing exercise and lifting weights. Ended up after a few months overtrained and had to stay in bed for like a year and a half to get better. Noradrenaline levels where super sky rocketing for all this time. The worst time of my life.

Symptoms-

exhaustion and complete weakness
irritability
Insomnia (major one)
couldnt listen to any noises
couldnt stand bright light
feelings of heavy legs and leg inflammation (especially quadriceps weighed like a ton each)
a bunch of other weird ones like discoordination in walking (as much as i could walk), breathing difficulties, headaches, nausea, feeling of tightness at the back of my neck and lower occipital region
massive backache
fast pulse when standing (that went on for 8 months)
prolonged time for pulse rate to return to basal level after swimming (the only exercise i could do, coz walking was a major problem back then so i drove every 3-4 days to the sea and tried to swim but it was all in vain i was so dead and this didnt help)

and a bunch of other symptoms

i learned about the dreadful noradrenaline potentials from you, all that time i just thought i was overtrained and couldnt explain what was wrong, didnt know of adrenal fatigue or HPA axis dysregulation.

That time was hell

Now i am a bit better but not more than 30% than before, i still have the other mystery to solve, why are my testicles shrinking for the last two years continuously (and hurting). I had this situation when i first took finasteride but something retriggered the whole mechanism now, its either a low 5-ar II genetic encoding function or something in my Andr. receptors or some other loop that controlls 5-ar II production and dht, really dont know, great mystery, great mess….

Great forum by the way, thanks for educating patients …

[Shaolin]

If you have been suffering from chronic post viral syndrome (as i also suffer unfortunately) you should be able to handle it to some extend without any adrenal supplements apart from dhea which is not that bad to use. Direct cortisol production is very little affected in such cases, its mostly a hippocampus/hypothalamic stimulus defect (either high increased inhibition to CNS or depleted signaling from the hippocampus/hypothalamus to lower levels). Its not that your adrenals havent got the ability to produce cortisol, like in hypothetically existent adrenal fatigue, but rather there is shifts in your stress perception,immune function and serotonin metabolism and this delays or hinders cortisol production under normal stimulus like awakening- . Have you tried sleeping late or not sleeping for one night to see if you feel better or not the next day or sleeping less hours one day and more the other to compensate??

In any case exercise and cognitive-behavioral therapy can improve you as also certain foods.

Do you also have irritable bowel syndrome??

Nevertheless you have other concurrent problems too so i dont know to what extend that affects you too. Surprised though that you produce so much T with ONE testicle if i read correctly????

Noone knows exactly what and how is affected from viruses that last long in your body, what sort of enzymes change epigenetically, what sort of immune function gets altered, some state altered cellular others humoral immunity (in my case its lowered amount of CD4 cells and lowered ratio of CD4/CD8) – most of the people i know however with one or two chronic viral problems have lowered CD8 counts. This can be more detrimental to your overal state.

Have you checked you immune profile and complementary system function??

Regarding drops of cortisol levels after early morning that happens to most chronic fatigue syndrome patients, its due to the loss of activity of ACTH/loss of sensitivity and the increasing catecholamine levels in mid day. Your adrenals are not affected however, in very few cases has there been adrenal atrophy in CFS patients (probably less than 20%) most adrenal atrophy comes from antidepressant chronic use.

heck who knows, its such a complicated matter. I only so improvement wit DHEA supplementation but didnt bother long term concentrated on exercise mostly.

Dr. M should know much more to say, hope he answers this one

[Shaolin]

Cortisol can do amazing things to someones brain. I will tell you what i suffered from from unecessary exogenous cortisol supplementation if you are interested. Its pretty scary though.

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