[Rami]

@DrMariano 641 wrote:

A vegetarian diet is not a natural human diet. Only in the modern age has such a diet been even possible. Otherwise, every society in history has always had at least a small amount of animal protein in the diet to maintain health – even if it is at least insects or insect parts that are often in harvested vegetables.

Plants are deficient in numerous amino acids, and are not good sources of the fat-soluble vitamins.

Recent studies show the brains of vegetarians are smaller than non-vegetarians.

The societies which have the most people who reach 100 years old usually eat the most animal sources of proteins and fats – even if it only consists of raw milk – compared to shorter lived societies.

I’m curious, could you list the animo acids in which vegetarian diets are deficient? I’ve been tracking my nutritional intake for a few years and I’d like to see if my numbers are indeed suboptimal.

Also, what are the fat-soluble vitamins you mention? I’m genuinely interested.

And finally, didn’t those studies of vegetarians’ brains conclude that the reason was suboptimal levels of B12. It seems to me that it would be fairer to blame the shrinkage on failure to supplement with B12 than to place the blame on vegatarian diets as a whole.

And finally, aren’t the Okinawans the population with the greatest longevity? Sure, they are not vegetarian, but they are predominantly vegetarian, with only occasional treats of fish and pork. They get most of their protein (only 9% of their caloric intake) And fat (an astonishing 6%!) from plants. They certainly do not get most of their proteins and fats from animal sources.

Thanks for your time.

[Rami]

Here is the nutritional info for 100 or so calories of bok-choi. Sure, it is not a good source of vitamin D, E and B12, but Note the enormous quantities of the other vitamins and minerals:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2377/2

And now take a look at the nutritional info for about 120 Cal of wild Atlantic salmon. While it is a great source of protein, vitamin B12 and selenium, Note the much lower quantity of most other vitamins and minerals: virtually no vitamin A, C, E, K, very little calcium. And this is one of the most Nutrient-dense Animal foods we have.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4102/2

[Rami]

@wapf fan 2612 wrote:

I agree with you about vitamins and the poor state of our soil. I fear it will never improve.

I must share with you what I know about eliminating animal foods from one’s diet. Vegetables are not nutrient dense and “do not include a host of key nutrients, such as vitamins A, D and K, DHA, EPA arachidonic acid, taurine, iodine, biotin, pantothenic acid, and vital minerals like sodium, chloride, potassium, sulfur, phosphorus, copper, manganese, boron, molybdenum and chromium,” says Sally Fallon Morell, president of the Weston A. Price Foundation.
“Animal foods like meat, liver, butter, whole milk and eggs contain ten to one hundred times more vitamins and minerals than plant foods,” says Fallon Morell. “Plant foods add variety and interest to the human diet but in most circumstances do not qualify as ‘nutrient-dense’ foods.”

When people who are sick adopt a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle many times they will feel better but that is because at the same time they are eliminating lots of bad things they were eating like processed foods. So of course they feel better. But for long term health people need animal fats and proteins. The vegetables and fruits just add some extra vitamins and minerals to the diet.

Our ancestors thrived on animal products. They prized the organs and fat. Animal fat is all people used for cooking besides olive oil for thousands of years. Cancer and heart disease were virtually unknown or completely absent from many cultures.

Vegetables are not nutrient dense foods? How is “nutrient-dense” defined? I think of nutrient density as amount of nutrients delivered per calorie. Most plants are nutrient-dense foods, especially vegetables and fruits. Legumes, grains, it’s and seeds are less nutrient dense, but they do have valuable nutrients as well.

Vitamin A is abundant in plants. Over abundant, actually. Our bodies are able to take what’s in the plants and convert it. One can see for oneself, the information is readily available on http://www.nutritiondata.com. Look up kale and see how much vitamin A you get from, say, one cup (67 g): over 200% of the RDI.

You are right, vitamin D is scarce, though not entirely absent, in plants. Monterey mushrooms provide 400 IU per 84 g. Soy-, almond and hemp milk are fortified with vitamin D, as is cows’ milk. Furthermore, the best way to get vitamin D is through sun exposure. THIS is the reason most Americans are vitamin D deficient (despite the fact that they eat plenty of meat, dairy and eggs) – they spend little time in the sun. Still, it is advisable for vegans and no vegans to take a supplement, just to be safe.

Vitamin K? Again, it is over abundant in plants. That same cup of kale delivers over 600% of the RDI. Perhaps you were thinking of vitamin K2? You are right, K2 is scarce. Yet we are able to convert a small amount of K1 into K2. And considering the enormous quantities of K1 vegans consume, even if a small percentage of the K1 converted into K2, that would still be a substantial amount. And if that’s not enough for you, then enjoy some sauerkraut or natto (although I understand it is excessively unpleasant…).

DHA and EPA are indeed a concern. In theory we should be able to convert something like 1-5% of our omega-3s into DHA. I take in about 5-6 g of n-3 every day, so that means that i end up with somewhere between 50 and 300 mg of DHA. That’s probably suboptimal, so I take a vegan DHA/EPA supplement, just to be safe.

Taurine is not an essential amino acid and most people are ale to manufacture what they need. A small percentage of people do need more taurine, so they can take a supplement. But most do not need to.

Iodine is easy. Spinach and strawberries contain a small amount, but the easiest way to get a lot of iodine is through a seaweed snack. They are delicious. MOST Americans get their iodine not from animal flesh but from… Iodized salt.

I don’t know where Mme Sally Fallon Morrell gets the idea that vegan diets are deficient in all of these other nutrients you mentioned. Pantothenic acid (B5) is abundant. It’s in everything! Mushrooms and tomato paste are particularly good sources. Molybdenum is abundant in legumes. NaCl is indeed low in plants, and we like it the way. Sodium should be kept to under 1000 mg a day. If you want it higher, then enjoy some Swiss chard and selery. Or just flavor your food with a bit of liquid aminos.

Potassium is, again, abundant! Eggplant and potatoes are excellent sources. I have never had any problem getting up to 5000 mg from as little as 2000 Cal.

Copper and manganese? Are you kidding me? They are ridiculously easy to get plent of. Mushrooms are a superb source of copper, and selenium, for that matter.

Let me assure you that I’m not just regurgitating someone else’s predigested nutritional dogma. I have done my homework. After being repeatedly told by people that vegan ism is dangerous and that I won’t be able to get the nutrients I need, I decided to track my nutritional intake and see for myself. and for years now I have been able to look at the numbers and report that, with the notable exception of vitamin B12, every vitamin and mineral are taken care of – easily – with a whole-food plant-based diet. It is very nutrient dense. And, if you’ll forgive the anecdotal evidence, I have felt the difference. Mme Morrell’s statement that animal products are many times more nutrient-dense than plants is simply factually untrue. Calorie per calorie, plants offer MUCH higher levels of vitamins and minerals, and (often overlooked) phytonutrients.

Don’t take my word for it. Look up the nutritional information for 200 calories of salmon (perhaps the most Nutrient-dense meat there is) and collard greens. You’ll see for yourself.

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