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Interesting thread…Im on 15mg HC day (10 upon waking and 5 in afternoon) but am thinking about bumping it up. On 7 grains of Armor Thyroid and dont feel a thing from it, never anxious or hyper, no anxiety, etc…and not dropping anymore bodyfat…
Earlier people were speaking about IBS, in the middle of what was probably my adrenal crash, my IBS type symptoms were so bad they were thinking I had chrons or colon cancer…it was bad…but no matter how many blood tests, endoscopies, and colonoscopy biopsies they did, could never find anything…I got medicated on so many digestive meds, anti biotics, etc over a 3 years period making me worse and worse, and thats at many different hospitals all adding to the misery…
Thankfully after about 6 months off all medications and doing all supplements and hormones instead, all of the IBS symptoms are gone…3-4 years of hell and being told I had a disease, 6 months of supplements and hormones and all that is gone…
So yea Id agree from my experience, that IBS like symptoms somehow go along with Adrenals crashing…as well I had recurrent upper respitory infections, which they back then said had nothing to do with the GI infections, and gave me additiional anti biotics…Id have “colds”, severe head or chest infections, that would go on for 4-6 weeks, and come back in a short amount of time…
Im feeling so much better…just wish I could dial in why Im on so much thyroid and it doesnt seem to effect me, like if it was working wouldnt I at some point experience all this anxiety and hyper feelings people talk about, so Id know to back off the dose?
Thanks to both of you for your comments. Yes Ive read the book-and when I read it I felt that way “Holy &**% this is all about ME!!”….
I live in the LA area, I am happy with my doctor right now compared to the past 4 years of hell…I am getting better, way better…but the thyroid thing annoys me that Im on such a high dose and dont feel a thing….Im working out again, I have energy and cognitive function again (I felt like half in the grave for a while), and I feel pretty good overall compared to last 4 years….I love my current doctor, and e after some of things that happened to me Im not totally trusting and all affectionate about doctors…
I am medically retired, and do not have much cash other than week to week living expenses…I do have great BC/BS PPO benefits, so maybe if he took partial insurance it would be worth a trip for a consultation…there is a catch though, since Im on workers comp I have to stick to certain doctors, and my current doctor is amazing, and I would want to and have to actually stick with him or I could get thrown back into the crappy work comp doctors pool which normally is shove tons of pain killers and other narcotics in me…so if I went I might consider it for consultations to go back to my doctor in LA who is very good and very open minded, likes to learn, and probably would be on board with it.
I have been on a lot of probiotics, and I know for sure they have done tremendous things…I really am not having digestive issues at all anymore, where before I could drink a glass of water or eat something clean and my body would freak out, bloat and sick gut, horrible bowel issues, etc…Im cleared up in that area, no issues and even if I cheat and have a cup of coffee or glass of wine here and there, no problems…before it would kill me…
I do not know what you meant by baseline readings, if you meant prior to me being sick, No i dont have them…if its prior to starting HRT, yes I have like 23 pages of them, different doctors did them over a years period, with the last doctor doing an ungodly amount of lab work that the lady drawing blood was like WOW…so Ive been checked for a ton, a ton…ive also had saliva cortisol tests done, urine, and some other thyroid tests supposedly doing things to my arm…
No clue what my body temp is…
Yes I wake often, or rather I wake up after 4 hours of sleep than its hit or miss off and on, but honestly for a decade I only slept 3-4 hours a night so dont know if thats just my natural pattern…I couldnt tell you even when I was healthy that I slept straight 7-8 hours, never been one to sleep in or hang out in bed, not even when I was depressed over retirement.
No I dont think I show any signs of low blood sugar, not that I can tell, dont feel shakes or anything…
Diet sticking to Living Fuel shakes 1-2 times a day, then basically meat and veggies, pretty clean.
@MetalMX 2726 wrote:
It seems to me that these infections which you mentioned might have trigger your spiral into ill health as well as antibiotic use killing off your good bowel flora. You could still maybe have a hidden infection affecting you. What i would do if i was in your position is get a CDSA (Conmplete digestive stool analysis) done with genova diagnostics. This will tell you if you do have any possible infections and if so how to eliminate them. This can screw your whole endocrine system too.
Likely a good complete probiotic supplement would be your friend to reestablish health bowel flora and prevent infections reoccuring as well as fight any ones that might be possibly active but hidden.
I would get off all hormone replacement as well and have baseline readings. If thyroid is the primary cause for example that would cause low T and low IGF-1. All the stress you we’re under has also likely caused a case of adrenal fatigue.
Seems like your are oversupplementing hormones and supplements which is just causing further problems for your body. You need to find the primary cause and once you find it tackle it then all the other pieces of the puzzle will fall into place.
What is your body temperature?
What is your diet at the moment can you give a rough outline? Do you experience hypoglycaemia or feeling shaky or anything that would indicate low blood sugar symptoms?
Do you wake up frequently during the night?
Thank you so much for your reply. When I have time to get into depth I will, Ill look up an old posting on this forum that has a lot of my background info as I started HRT.
Yes I went to 3 doctors who all confirmed low T, thyroid, and IGF 1.
Prior to 3 years of major illness, I was a full time police officer, SWAT on one of the best teams in the country in my opinion, a Division I strength and conditioning coach who still worked out alongside the athletes who now some are in the NFL and NBA, was very lean normally 10-12% bodyfat, and 230-245 lbs with the hitting 245 pounds taking effort like 6k calories a day around the clock…after 3 years of being sick with infections, I was 270 at like 30% bodyfat ugh…all of it in my midsection…and yes during the ill periods I had horrible digestion, they thought I had cancer or chrons, but I had tons of tests from various doctors and hospitals that confirmed I didnt have any disease. Hell before all of this I never got sick, only had sports injuries. Ive never had a cavity, chicken pox, poison ivy or anything even like that!! I worked two full time jobs in addition to running an athletic ministry my entire adult life! I went to very respectable undergrad schools with quality academics, played football with great success, as well competed in powerlifting, went on to grad school and did MMA heavily, continued training with the Ivy League athletes I coached at the time, and up until an initial injury about 4 years ago was a freak athlete and work out addict…had a minor injury, doctor botched the surgery, had infections, corrective surgeries, supposedly I was overmedicated on anti biotics for various things and that what was making me very sick, in addition to being on like 8 other freaking medications around those 3 pelvic floor surgeries and then a bicep that ripped off the bone and had to be reattached which was random.
I do not have baseline Test, IGF, or thyroid…but seeing that at 31 I was working two jobs that were crazy physically demanding (SWAT and college strength coach), I was 10% bodyfat at 245, hang cleaning 350 for reps, squatting 600 for reps, could run with college athletes in sprint intervals, agility, etc….I could sleep 3 hours a day and be hyper, happy, strong, clear headed, etc….I imagine my Test, GH, was well beyond the normal average male. Heck I was around college athletes and coaches, and SWAT guys, and people joked all the time how in the hell did I live the way I did, running on “adrenaline, testosterone, and caffeine” one of my bosses joked. FYI since doctors have asked before, I was CLEAN ie no steroids or drugs, I was a cop, running ministries, and never needed a thing to be strong or athletic until now. Ive never even smoked weed for Gods sake.
In the past 6 months ive dropped from 270 to 237, but still 25% BF….moods are fine, Im doing really well actually…8 months ago I was a mess, being forced to retire from jobs I loved, being totally in pain all the time, totally fatigued with no energy, I was horrible….now Im feeling very chill, doing nuerofeedback meditation twice a week, doing retreats when I find them, taking a lot of time for “chilling out” which wasnt really something I did a ton before being retired because I was working all the time…so Im not having mood swings at all. Feeling pretty good actually compared to last 4 years.
I can take 7 grains of thyroid and not feel a thing, I could and do go back to sleep. I wake up 5am normally, take it, and used to go walk or go do something, but been going back to sleep for 2 hours. So its like Im not feeling a thing from a crazy high dose of thyroid, and of course I cant stand my bodyfat being so dang high when my entire life I was a lean athlete.
@MetalMX 2722 wrote:
Do you have confirmed low testosterone or significantly low IGF-1 to be on those HRT’s?
In all honesty they can sometimes do more harm than good. Myself i have a autoimmune thyroid condition (low thyroid) which was causing my low testosterone. So once i got on that 3 grains my Testosterone tripled into high normal range. My IGF-1 remained low as well as free Test until i got on cortisol for adrenal support now both are up their and im feeling much better. So by treating thyroid/adrenals for myself which was the main cause i ended up fixing everything else.
Do you have baseline labs when you werent on Hormone replacement therapy?
Please be more specific on which symptoms you are experiencing so i could offer more assistance.
Only thing i could say is with not being able to lose weight and a high amount of Bodyfat you could be having Insulin issues. Insulin Resistance or otherwise which something like GH replacement therapy could be making worse.
How is your digestion? How are your moods? Any hypo symptoms?
Anyone frequent these boards anymore? I see my doc next week, and if I had some pointers or suggestions on what to test for on next labs Im sure he would gladly do them.
Any help or suggestions on what to get done on next labs in a month to try to sort this out?
Ive been eating strict, working out, etc, and cannot get past 25% bodyfat, when prior to my 3 year nightmare of medical problems and illness I was 10-14% at most my entire life!!! I dropped 30 pounds in a few months once starting HRT, but my BF has not been dropping much or like I would want to be “normal” again.
Wow, I just read :
http://livingnetwork.co.za/hormones/adrenal-fatigue/
Thanks for that link….one thing that has come up on all my labs in the past 6 months has been really high DHEA, while my T, IGF-1, cortisol have been low among other quirks in my labs…All of the doctors who looked at the labs noticed the super high DHEA compared to other things going on, but did not have an explanation. So that FAQ explains it as the body’s last ditch effort somehow to raise cortisol…
Interesting…
When I get back from holidays will be seeing the doctor…am going to talk about trying Cortef since cortisol is low, and 4 grains of Armor I dont even feel…I can tell no difference from being on thyroid or off…
Also going to ask about the supplements you all listed, and injectable Vit C and Glutithione.
Any other suggestions on supplements please let me know. If i get them through doctor it is covered 100% by insurance, so I am willing to down any supplements that might even give me a slight benefit.
Also, any particular sample diet plans? I mean the simpler the better…I dont care if it tastes good or not, just whatever is the easiest to prepare!!
Chicken, Beef, yams, berries, nuts?
The one major symptom that is driving me crazy besides energy and cognitive function, is severe bodyfat gain and its all in the midsection. Ive never had a “gut” and love handles in my entire life. From 17 to 31 years old I ranged in the 220-245 range at 10% bodyfat, lean and muscular mesomorph. The times I was near 245 took insane effort, 6 meals a day, protein shakes every 2 hours, 6k calories a day, and training very heavy…yet even then I was lean at 245. Now Im 260, nearly 30% bodyfat, all of it being my midsection. I cant fit in any of my clothes anymore, however most people think I look lighter not heavier. They think I look lighter probably becauase my neck, traps, arms, shoulders, etc are not as muscular as they used to be. No one guesses Im 260 if it comes up and most are shocked. So whatever it is cortisol high for a long period, now cortisol low, this midsection bodyfat drives me insane. Ive been working out for 4 months now, eating clean, and HRT for about 2 months I think it is, without any visible change in bodyfat nor the scale weight.
Now if I were to go balls to the wall interval training, and lift hard, and jump back into MMA (pretending I would even have the energy), maybe I would burn fat but with my supposed adrenal fatigue I didnt think it was healthy to do high intensity training.
Fatigue that no matter how clean you eat, how much sleep you get, and relaxation response activities you do daily, you still do not feel like you have your mojo. You tire out easily even if you are doing activities you love with people you love. Your mental focus is for crap, short term memory is horrible, brain fog, cannot multi task, have to write lists down or you will forget what you have to do that day. Sore and aching joints and muscles (even though its getting better, used to be way worse), cramps/spasms, and easily sprain things that end up nagging for days or weeks. Muscle weakness at times, at times seems like lack of coordination too. This is not emotional or depression that is causing this kind of fatigue, I have already been down that road. Now Im mentally in a much different direction, and even if Im excited to go to the gym I get there and really have to drag through a workout when I normally love it and feel energized during and after workouts (comparing now to when I was healthy). I do not feel refreshed after workouts but more like totally zapped. I can go to church which used to be a source or strength and energy, and even if Im into it I find myself being distracted from trying to concentrate on whats going on, and getting fatigued mentally from having to consciously pay attention, and make it about a half hour sometimes and wish I was laying down somewhere closing my eyes. I can be out with friends enjoying myself, an hour or two into it I hit a wall unexpectedly and feel like I need to get home ASAP and lay down.
I am super hydrated, eating super clean, on tons of supplements…it is not any of those things…I am doing neurofeedback with meditation twice weekly with guidance, and daily on my own doing meditation or relaxing walks.
To try to put this in perspective, I worked two full time jobs my entire adult life not because I had to, because I loved them. Bosses joked I ran on adrenaline, testosterone, and caffeine because people knew I barely slept and worked two jobs, along with volunteer work, and still worked out once or twice a day, and was always positive, chipper, leading things, mediating things, on the ball and the go to man. Amongst that I could still read 2-3 books a week without even trying, it just happened naturally. I didnt “try” to do anything on the jobs, or in my free time reading ,praying, meditating, reflecting, researching, etc….its just how I operate and who I am. I led a college athletic ministry and organized and taught all of that, I taught at a police academy, coached college athletes, was on a SWAT team, always sharp and passionate about everything. Never had an energy or focus problem. Now its a chore to just get through the day with remembering what appointments I have and trying to do the best I can at them without getting too tired or losing focus. Before I could work a 12 hour patrol shift in a high crime area, after that serve warrants with SWAT for 5 hours, go home sleep 3 hours, head to the college to coach and train with football or basketball players, still squatting and olympic lifting just as much as Division One athletes in their prime, and go straight into another 12 hour shift….not skip a beat, not be tired, be totally energized and excited….I took about a day a week off from both to do peaceful and reflective things, recharge my battery, but always was productive and happy.
Any supplements or testing anyone thinks I should do please let me know, and where I might find info on it to talk to my doctor about it. Also any supplements I should be on or not, and for sure the cortisol/cortef thing I will talk to my doctor about after the holidays because I do not feel a thing from the thyroid. Everyone else I know who has gotten on thyroid says it snaps their energy and focus right back within days or a week…I cant even tell Im on anything different it doesnt do a thing to me. The Test and GH seems to be working as some things are getting slowly better, but not to the extent others on HRT rave about the immediate and short response benefits and changes. Im two months or more and not feeling a huge difference, and definetly not burning bodyfat or putting on muscle.
Thank you for the response. I am in a hurry so will get the ranges later, but answer other questions for now.
Originally I had a minor rectal fissure, which was supposed to be “no big deal” and “simple surgery” where I would be 100% in 6 weeks…immediately after the surgery I was having spasms from my butt all the way up into my intestines…I was leaking blood and stool out my rear, and seeing stars literally from the pain. I lived on the floor for 2 weeks and crawled on my hands and knees to the tub multiple times a day to take damn near boiling water baths to try to calm the spasms…I kept calling the doctor’s office saying something was wrong, and they just prescribed more pain meds. Two weeks later on the post op appointment, the doctor said “oh no, this isnt good, its infected, your bleeding, the surgery didnt take”….and long story short I ended up with two more fistula surgeries and cleaning/cutting out infections, and years later when I finally got to Hopkins and Cleveland Clinic, my internal spinchter had been cut, which they said could explain the spasms…and I think some nerves were cut too. During the time starting right after the first surgery, I had tons of GI issues, couldnt digest anything, and had what Id describe was food poisoning like sickness all the time, flus, colds, bad upper resp infections…and for most things different doctors didnt think they were connected at all and would just give me difference anti biotics for every different sickness I had.
I also had a bicep detach at the distal head last Feb, which was freakish since I hadnt been training for 3 years, and I wasnt doing anything strenuous when it happened…so that was another surgery. Besides the frequent illness, little cuts didnt heal fast, Id sprain ankles walking, things hurt for days…
The blood results I posted are when I was not on anything, and I have labs from the two previous years when I was not on anything either.
I eat primarily chicken and beef, fruits and veggies, protein shakes with fiber. I take a multi, anti oxidants, essential fatty acids, neurotransmitter support supplements, BCAAs, DHEA 75mg day, Pregnenolone 150mg day,Vit D, B complex, etc.
I had major GI disturbances for the 3 years….if there is anything that the HRT has done I can tell for sure, its cleared up those digestive issues! I thought Id drop bodyfat and gain muscle back, but I found it a welcomed surprise that it stablized my digestive issues. It also has hoped my focus and concentration a little. And for a long long time I used to wake up in severe pain in my muscles and joints, like I played a football game or something, that has slowly improved and I dont wake up feeling like I got my ass beat with a bat anymore.
I will give a detailed explanation of the mental and physical fatigue after my appointments today…gotta get to physical therapy for pelvic floor, then neurofeedback, then the chiro.
@MetalMX 2360 wrote:
So the surgery triggered all this. What did you get operated on?
I would go off everything and do bloods then.
Hows your diet? You need a good quality comprehensive multi-vitamin to support you nutritionally and no other supplements which could possibly be making things worse. Also a decent intake of good fats from the total fats in your diet including nuts, avocados, hemp seed oil, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil. These fats build cell membranes and make hormones.
You didn’t post reference ranges. So i cannot comment on your hormone levels till you do.
If your cortisol is low 4 grains of armour is likely making it low and making you feel like crap crushing your cortisol into the ground main issue. Good Thyroid/adrenal levels will improve T and GH levels. You likely don’t need GH, GH signaling improves when other hormones improve, and it can cause insulin resistance as well.
What are your main symptoms top 10 or so. Be more specific besides just fatigue describe the fatigue etc…
Do you have digestive issues/disturbances?
Been on HRT for a few months now, and some improvement…but not a great deal…still have such little energy, and still cannot drop bodyfat despite workouts, eating super clean, being on thyroid, growth hormone, testosterone, inj B12, HCG, etc….
@wondering 2080 wrote:
Ranges would be helpful…but…
1. T4 looks on the low side. (I would expect poor energy and some anxiety from this)
Yes, thats what to my uneducated eye it looked like, but I was put on T3 instead??
2. Cortisol is very low, especially if that blood draw was a morning one. (I would expect anxiety from this for sure)
Yes morning draw…and the saliva results show low cortisol as well…
DO NOT TAKE Thyroid hormone unless your Adrenals are supported…meaning getting on Cortef (HC) for a few weeks before even beginning to try Armour. Normal starting dose is 10mg, but you may need to go higher. I needed 25mg. in divided doses thruout the day.
I am not familiar with Cortef or Armour? I have about 20 supplements for CFS and AF that these two offices gave me, said they were to support my adrenals and cell function…$$$$$ as hell too…
3. Testosterone looks low.
Yea, its gotta be, I imagine from my former lifestyle I was way above the high range of average EASILY….now I pack on bodyfat in the belly no matter what diet or exercise I do…
4. Ferritin on the high side? check ranges, may want to donate some blood.
Yea, its been high the past few years…
5. Vitamin D3 is low. I would get yourself 5000iu capsules and take with a meal. But find a Dr. who will test you in a few months and adjust from there.
On it, doing one 5000iu capsule a morning
On the bright side, you should feel better that these numbers show that you have a huge opportunity to feel much better if you find the right care.
Where are you located?
SoCal, LA
Anywhere near Michigan or upper California?
IGF-1 156 ng/mL
NueroScience Saliva/Urine Results:
Cortisol
8am 5.0 ng/mL
Noon 2.2 ng/mL
6pm 3.4 ng/mL
11pm 1.5 ng/mLDHEA 618.3 pg/mL
Epinephrine 4.8 ug/gCR (says low, range should be 8-11 day, 3-6 night)
Norepinephrine 27.6 (says low, should be morning 35-45 night 15-25)
Dopamine 270.3 (says elevated, ranges should be day 125-175 night 80-120)
DOPAC 584.3 (says low, range should be 900-1250 and 600-900)
Serotonin 125.7 says optimal, although the blood level Serontonin was so low didnt register
5-HIAA 1,541.2 (says low, should be 2500-5000)
Glycine 1,044.7 says optimal
Taurine 66.7 (says low should be 150-550 and 100-250)
GABA 2.6 says Optimal
Glutamate 21.1 says optimal
PEA 75.8 (says elevated should be 30-70 and 21-50)
Histamine 25.3 (says elevated should be 10-20 and 5-15)
Creatinine 151.1 (in range)Thanks for the replies. I cannot tell if the last one is individual or posted to all threads?
Anyways, Im pretty confused, the one doctor I saw out of a high profile HRT/Anti Aging office here in the LA area, put me on T3, not T4…and its been about a month on Test, GH, T3, and HCG, and I still feel like #$$%…to make matters worse I am totally broke, I spent all my money on appointments and treatments since moving to LA, because my workers compensation insurance company was lagging, while I was having bouts of sickness, cramps, spams, etc, again….so I went to a few different holistic/anti aging doctors here, got the HRT, started doing some nutritional IVs (which I liked and they did make me feel good for a few days), but now Im broke…my insurance company is probably not going to pay me back, and I have to find a doctor willing to bill them (private workers compensation insurance company)….but, I know from the past, most of the holistic, functional, integrative type doctors, want nothing to do with workers compensation so I can imagine what Ill face…I already got a list from them and looked up the people on their list, they were OBGYNs and other doctors with NO specialty or services related to my issues….so the battle goes on with BS workers compensation…and I hate to say it, maybe I dont, but as a former police officer, and a veteran, these insurance companies do not give a crap about you or your service…I have combat vet friends who go through hell, the same type of hell I do, to get proper treatment…it seems the doctors on the workers comp lists are the bottom of the barrel….in fact, I ended up on disability because a doctor botched a simple surgery, doing permanent damage, then a few years of other doctors throwing anti biotics, pain meds, GI meds, and everything else at me making me sick as a dog…
