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@DrMariano 2259 wrote:
After reviewing some of your posts, I have a few thoughts:
What is your ferritin level?
Thyroid and Iron both determine temperature and energy.Adequate iron is necessary for the citric acid cycle to function in order for cells to produce ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) – the basic storage unit for energy within cells – from the metabolism of carbohydrates, proteins, and fats. The use of ATP helps create body heat. It is made in the mitochondria.
Thyroid hormone signals cells to produce more mitochondria and larger so that more ATP can be produced. However, Thyroid hormone cannot cross cell membranes without being actively transported across. Active transport requires ATP. No iron, no ATP, no thyroid transport. Thus even adequate thyroid hormone doesn’t work without adequate cellular iron.
Mitochondrial function
Nutrient treatments to help improve mitochondrial function can be useful to improve ATP production and thus Thyroid function. The B-Vitamins, for example, are important in this regard.Low Aldosterone and high Renin
Renin transforms Angiotensinogen into Angiotensin I.
Angiotensin I is than transformed into Antiogensin II by Angiotensin Converting Enzyme.
Antiogensin II then stimulates Aldosterone production and stimulates Symphathetic Nervous System activity.Since Aldosterone is low, yet Renin is high, I wonder if there is some block to Aldosterone production. For example, Vitamin C is needed to produce Aldosterone. Immune System pro-inflammatory signaling can also suppress adrenal function, including reducing aldosterone production.
Levothyroxine (T4) vs. Armour Thyroid (T3+T4) vs. T4+T3 combinations
One of the problems in treating patients with T3 is that it is immediately active.This is good in that if patients have difficulty in converting T4 to T3, T3 can be highly effective in improving function.
However, if there is preexisting excessive immune system pro-inflammatory signaling, then T3 not only improves metabolism in all cells of the body but it also specifically improves function of immune system cells. This can exacerbate/worsening already excessive immune system activity.
The increase immune system activity will then overstimulate the sympathetic nervous system – leading to anxiety, mood instability, etc.
The increase in immune system activity can suppress adrenal function. Thus, Thyroid treatment may “uncovering adrenal insufficiency” – though actually it is a contributing factor.
The increase in immune system activity may also impair thyroid signaling, at the production level in the thyroid gland or otherwise.
In the past, I observed how Armour Thyroid is more likely to cause adrenal problems than T4, with an understanding of the relationships between the nervous, endocrine, and immune system, this becomes clearer. T4 alone is much less likely to overstimulate immune system activity and the subsequent downstream signaling problems.
When suboptimal adrenal function is and excessive pro-inflammatory immune system activity is present, T4 (Levothyroxine) is much more tolerable and is preferred as a treatment.
Dr Mariano My last Ferritin was 150. Ideal i believe. I am checking it again in the next blood test.
My Cortisol also elevated – 730 (140 – 620), ACTH – 12 (<11) Also slightly elevated. It will be interesting if this all normalises on T3 meds at the moment.
I have actually being using supplements to boost mitochondrial functioning specifically with a product called Mito-Cell Support from Kirkman Labs. Containing Acetyl L Carnitine, Alpha ketoglutarate, malic acid, b1, b2, manganese, magnesium and others. Also NADH.
In regards to nutritional support i have been using a multi-vitamin from kirkman labs which contains considerable vitamin C.
When my aldosterone was low and renin high i was on a slow release T3 which was causing my severe hypo symptoms it basically didn’t work it was as if i wasn’t using thyroid medication i had all the same symptoms probably the reason why aldosterone remained low. I will be checking renin, cortisol, ACTH on T3 meds at the moment to check adrenal function.
On T4 meds my temperature drops further and goes to 35.1C and i feel absolutely terrible, have swelling/edema which i notice, no motivation, no energy, no appetite, easy weight gain and feel horrible. This is T4 only or T4/T3
This morning after changing to 25mcg of T3 which i will do twice a day as Recommended on the Wilson’s Temperature Syndrome Website every 12 hours i feel like a completely different person my temperature is 36.0C in the morning and it has gone up to 36.2C and i feel absolutely fantastic!!! The energy is easily their, this convinces me i have Wilsons Temperature Syndrome and RT3 Dominance alone. Whereas whenever my temperature drops i notice a change in my personality with no motivation etc and so forth. This evening it is still staying at 36.0C at 6pm and i took the morning dose at 10am and due to take the next dose at 10pm
From reading why WTS comes about it says it is mostly due to stress and my body has been under extreme stresses over these past 3-4 years.
One question i have for you. I have been looking into Acetyl L Carnitine by itself to use to help with my peripheral neuropathy as well as mitochondrial functioning but i am not sure if it negatively impacts thyroid functioning. From reading online in several places it is mentioned it blocks the aciton of thyroid hormone in the cells is this true?
Also is their any way through blood tests to check if excessive pro-inflammatory immune system activity is present?
@MetalMX 2263 wrote:
Dr Mariano My last Ferritin was 150. Ideal i believe. I am checking it again in the next blood test.
My Cortisol also elevated – 730 (140 – 620), ACTH – 12 (<11) Also slightly elevated. It will be interesting if this all normalises on T3 meds at the moment.
I have actually being using supplements to boost mitochondrial functioning specifically with a product called Mito-Cell Support from Kirkman Labs. Containing Acetyl L Carnitine, Alpha ketoglutarate, malic acid, b1, b2, manganese, magnesium and others. Also NADH.
In regards to nutritional support i have been using a multi-vitamin from kirkman labs which contains considerable vitamin C.
When my aldosterone was low and renin high i was on a slow release T3 which was causing my severe hypo symptoms it basically didn’t work it was as if i wasn’t using thyroid medication i had all the same symptoms probably the reason why aldosterone remained low. I will be checking renin, cortisol, ACTH on T3 meds at the moment to check adrenal function.
On T4 meds my temperature drops further and goes to 35.1C and i feel absolutely terrible, have swelling/edema which i notice, no motivation, no energy, no appetite, easy weight gain and feel horrible. This is T4 only or T4/T3
This morning after changing to 25mcg of T3 which i will do twice a day as Recommended on the Wilson’s Temperature Syndrome Website every 12 hours i feel like a completely different person my temperature is 36.0C in the morning and it has gone up to 36.2C and i feel absolutely fantastic!!! The energy is easily their, this convinces me i have Wilsons Temperature Syndrome and RT3 Dominance alone. Whereas whenever my temperature drops i notice a change in my personality with no motivation etc and so forth. This evening it is still staying at 36.0C at 6pm and i took the morning dose at 10am and due to take the next dose at 10pm
From reading why WTS comes about it says it is mostly due to stress and my body has been under extreme stresses over these past 3-4 years.
One question i have for you. I have been looking into Acetyl L Carnitine by itself to use to help with my peripheral neuropathy as well as mitochondrial functioning but i am not sure if it negatively impacts thyroid functioning. From reading online in several places it is mentioned it blocks the aciton of thyroid hormone in the cells is this true?
Also is their any way through blood tests to check if excessive pro-inflammatory immune system activity is present?
Metalmx
you bring up a good point about point about how does one measure if one is in a pro inflammatory state when all markers, homocystein, c reactive protein are all normal. Giving T4 does work in some people but for people like my self it goes straight in to revese t3 for some unknown reason once it goes above 35 mcgs. Uncovering adrenal issue with armour or t-3 could result in t-3 pooling in the blood system causing build up in the blood and deficeincy in the tissues putting as Dr M said excess stress on the adrenals. If the adrenals are how ever supported this should not be an issue. I also have a few patients that had low aldosterone and renin once treated with t-3 only their issues completely resolved as well as there symptoms. Their renin and aldosterone levels double from base line to upper 1/3 of the range. These people were barely functioning and now back to normal lives. They tried t-4 t3/t4 combo on cortef but no resolution no just on t-3 only they are not on any cortef and are doing fantastic. Again it comes down to bioindividiuality.@hardasnails1973 2264 wrote:
Metalmx
you bring up a good point about point about how does one measure if one is in a pro inflammatory state when all markers, homocystein, c reactive protein are all normal. Giving T4 does work in some people but for people like my self it goes straight in to revese t3 for some unknown reason once it goes above 35 mcgs. Uncovering adrenal issue with armour or t-3 could result in t-3 pooling in the blood system causing build up in the blood and deficeincy in the tissues putting as Dr M said excess stress on the adrenals. If the adrenals are how ever supported this should not be an issue. I also have a few patients that had low aldosterone and renin once treated with t-3 only their issues completely resolved as well as there symptoms. Their renin and aldosterone levels double from base line to upper 1/3 of the range. These people were barely functioning and now back to normal lives. They tried t-4 t3/t4 combo on cortef but no resolution no just on t-3 only they are not on any cortef and are doing fantastic. Again it comes down to bioindividiuality.Yes every person is different and i am happy T3 is working lets just hope it stays that way.
I believe the issue with Reverse and not responding to meds which is occuring with me is simply due to the fact that i have been low thyroid for far too long and the body has put in a defence mechanism with RT3 and cannot upregulate. Plain old T3 by passes this issue.
Also their is mercury toxicity which i am still chelating with product you mentioned working sweetly i might add. And hidden infections with a previously severe pinworm infestation that i had. Hidden infections are a given with being hypo well forever & mercury. With T3 i am feeling gut and bladder pains and it feels like its working to help clear anything else that might possibly be their.
I will have a check of homocysteine levels since i have checked them only last year so they must have changed. As well as cholesterol which will be important if i am low to supplement if not then all is good. And iron/Ferritin levels to make sure they are in good range.
All in all the amount of issues i have had last year and to have resolved is unbelieveable:
1. Extremely Hypothyroid
2. Bad case of mercury poisoning
3. Very bad case of candida overgrowth
4. Severe Hidden pinworm infestation – Causing Malabsorbtion of nutrients – I was constantly hungry.
5. Chronically nutrient depleted – i had no zinc on blood test despite supplementing and others so low! including low cholesterol and i was overweight.
6. UndermethylatedWOW now that i go back and think about it. The symptoms we’re 50-100 probably i felt as though i would lose it many times and just give up but i didn’t, pushed through and now i am here. Had so many doctors tell me nothing was wrong and other telling me i am sick in the mind what a joke.
Now i can just tweak thing with blood work and any additional symptoms i am having. Thats why this forum is so good. Real information for people who want true health.
HAN i have learned something from another doctor here who told me if you want to check for hidden infections you should do a blood test for 25-hydroxyvitamin D as well as 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D and the ratio between the two will give you a clue about hidden Bacterial infections or other. I am not sure on the details. Have you heard about this?
I tried some Isocort and boy do i feel Gooood its like almost complete symptom relief. More energy, sex drive kinda comes back from nowhere, and yeah just a general interest in many things again where as before everything i do is painfully hard and tiring to do. Can’t think, focus or set goals and everything sucks.
I might try this Isocort protocol which i saw on the STTM website:
Day 1-3 2.5MG first thing in the AM
Day 4-6 2.5MG AM and four hours later 2.5MG
Day 7-9 2.5MG first thing, four hours 2.5 MG, four hours, 2.5MG
Day 10-12 5MG first thing, four hours, 2.5MG, four hours 2.5MG
Day 13-16 5MG first thing, 5MG four hours, 2.5MG
Day 17-20 10MG first thing, four hours 5MG, four hours 5MGI like going by feel at the moment because that might work for me. We will see.
Does anyone know at what dosage of Isocort does it start to become suppressive?
@MetalMX 2293 wrote:
Does anyone know at what dosage of Isocort does it start to become suppressive?
I believe the adrenals normally produce the equivalent of 20mg of hydrocortisone so the final dosage listed on the protocol would be a complete replacement.
@Gardiner 2294 wrote:
I believe the adrenals normally produce the equivalent of 20mg of hydrocortisone so the final dosage listed on the protocol would be a complete replacement.
Thanks.
Yeah i feel so good its unbelieveable my life is finally back. It has stopped the weakness feeling, constant fatigue, muscle weakness, shortness of breath and unsteadyness i have felt now for a few months on thyroid meds as well i have gained back an interest in many activites as well as my sinus issue loss of smell and taste has almost come back in 2 days on Isocort, simply amazing. Also my digestion feels comfortable and no pains or uncomfortable feelings.
I will have to stop it though in a few days then wait a day then do bloods to show low cortisol (how i dread this but has to be done) then will get on Hydrocortisone which i think will work much better since these little pills aren’t standardised.
Is their any real danger from going from 6 pills a day which im on now to 0 besides feeling like crap?
@MetalMX 2303 wrote:
Is their any real danger from going from 6 pills a day which im on now to 0 besides feeling like crap?
Probably advisable to taper off over a few days…..
@Gardiner 2310 wrote:
Probably advisable to taper off over a few days…..
Stopping cold turkey almost ended up putting me in the hospital with shortness of breath from gasping for air. Its called an adrenal crisis. And isocort could alter the test same as HC. If you are finally getting a clincal response why are they pulling meds that is insane and potentially extremely dangerous and lifethreatening in many cases.
@hardasnails1973 2315 wrote:
Stopping cold turkey almost ended up putting me in the hospital with shortness of breath from gasping for air. Its called an adrenal crisis. And isocort could alter the test same as HC. If you are finally getting a clincal response why are they pulling meds that is insane and potentially extremely dangerous and lifethreatening in many cases.
Their is no they man… i am my own doctor. I have abandoned endos who tell me maybe i have CFS. Even alternative docs don’t know wtf they are doing prescribing random vitamins/minerals and charging outrageous prices for consultations. I did a trial of Isocort it worked well. But i just want to make sure their is low cortisol before i would continue it on a longer term basis. Getting bloods done tomorrow then going from their. Adrenal fatigue or whatever it needs to get sorted.
Right now off the isocort i feel absolutely exhausted and can’t do anything and am just sitting here at home not doing much of anything. And oh i have been to the ER with shortness of breath a few times but my blood pressure wasn’t low and i still have shortness of breath now and then. But my adrenals are definitely screwed which these new bloods will show.
If my temp is 96.6F in the morning. Then after T3 meds 60mcg throughout the day. Drops to 95.3F.
Interestingly i started to remember my dreams when i tried isocort i havent been able to remember them forever not even with high doses of P5P! I am going off a lot of the stuff you taught me.
low cholesterol, triglycerides and WBC would be other clues to adrenals. My WBC are low normal. Like in 2005 when i lost a lot of weight and had little appetite my triglycerides we’re below reference range.
After this my next step is to check RBC Fatty acids for any imbalances. I have pyroluria confirmed through urine testing so my Arachidonic acid must be in the dumps. Zinc and manganese i have been supplementing but i cannot supplement P5P due it exacerbating peripheral neuropathy like symptoms which i had gotten from the hashimoto’s.
What i wanted to ask you was did Isocort cause any Estrogen metabolism issues for you? Because even on the short time on it i noticed nipple issues which i have never gotten before. If i need the Cortisol i will go with HC rather than Isocort.
After getting these bloods back it would be good to discuss results with you but i have not been able to reach you via email. Too busy?
@MetalMX 2320 wrote:
Their is no they man… i am my own doctor. I have abandoned endos who tell me maybe i have CFS. Even alternative docs don’t know wtf they are doing prescribing random vitamins/minerals and charging outrageous prices for consultations. I did a trial of Isocort it worked well. But i just want to make sure their is low cortisol before i would continue it on a longer term basis. Getting bloods done tomorrow then going from their. Adrenal fatigue or whatever it needs to get sorted.
Right now off the isocort i feel absolutely exhausted and can’t do anything and am just sitting here at home not doing much of anything. And oh i have been to the ER with shortness of breath a few times but my blood pressure wasn’t low and i still have shortness of breath now and then. But my adrenals are definitely screwed which these new bloods will show.
If my temp is 96.6F in the morning. Then after T3 meds 60mcg throughout the day. Drops to 95.3F.
Interestingly i started to remember my dreams when i tried isocort i havent been able to remember them forever not even with high doses of P5P! I am going off a lot of the stuff you taught me.
low cholesterol, triglycerides and WBC would be other clues to adrenals. My WBC are low normal. Like in 2005 when i lost a lot of weight and had little appetite my triglycerides we’re below reference range.
After this my next step is to check RBC Fatty acids for any imbalances. I have pyroluria confirmed through urine testing so my Arachidonic acid must be in the dumps. Zinc and manganese i have been supplementing but i cannot supplement P5P due it exacerbating peripheral neuropathy like symptoms which i had gotten from the hashimoto’s.
What i wanted to ask you was did Isocort cause any Estrogen metabolism issues for you? Because even on the short time on it i noticed nipple issues which i have never gotten before. If i need the Cortisol i will go with HC rather than Isocort.
After getting these bloods back it would be good to discuss results with you but i have not been able to reach you via email. Too busy?
Yes we can discuss them
I have not got any emals from you in months..If you were on Isocort and stopped it I pray you came off it slow if not for get about it go back on it and do it right. You need to stop slow cut back on pill every 5 days if you feel weak or shaky and sick to your stomach go back up wait a week then try again. You need to be off Isocort or any kind of glands for 2 weeks even HC before doing labs your your labs will not tell the true story.
Here are some links in this link is a FAQ’s I helped do read it and the next link is the best parts from Dr. Jeffrey’s book “Safe Uses of Cortisol”.
http://livingnetwork.co.za/hormones/adrenal-fatigue/
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-uses/If you feel dam bad off Isocort then you do have Adrenal Problems and need to go back on it. The best way to tell if your supporting your adrenals with enough Isocort or HC is to do what this Dr. in this links says take your temp after your up 3hrs. then every 3 hrs. 3x’s a day add them up div. by 3 this is your avg. If your temps avg. goes up or down more the 2ths your not on enough to support your adrenals. If you on Isocort 8 pills a day this is = to 20 mgs of Cortef HC and you would need to switch to this try it for a month see if your temps level off if not go up on the dose to 25 mgs doing say 10 in the morning and 5 at lunch and dinner.
http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph
@MetalMX 2320 wrote:Their is no they man… i am my own doctor. I have abandoned endos who tell me maybe i have CFS. Even alternative docs don’t know wtf they are doing prescribing random vitamins/minerals and charging outrageous prices for consultations. I did a trial of Isocort it worked well. But i just want to make sure their is low cortisol before i would continue it on a longer term basis. Getting bloods done tomorrow then going from their. Adrenal fatigue or whatever it needs to get sorted.
Right now off the isocort i feel absolutely exhausted and can’t do anything and am just sitting here at home not doing much of anything. And oh i have been to the ER with shortness of breath a few times but my blood pressure wasn’t low and i still have shortness of breath now and then. But my adrenals are definitely screwed which these new bloods will show.
If my temp is 96.6F in the morning. Then after T3 meds 60mcg throughout the day. Drops to 95.3F.
Interestingly i started to remember my dreams when i tried isocort i havent been able to remember them forever not even with high doses of P5P! I am going off a lot of the stuff you taught me.
low cholesterol, triglycerides and WBC would be other clues to adrenals. My WBC are low normal. Like in 2005 when i lost a lot of weight and had little appetite my triglycerides we’re below reference range.
After this my next step is to check RBC Fatty acids for any imbalances. I have pyroluria confirmed through urine testing so my Arachidonic acid must be in the dumps. Zinc and manganese i have been supplementing but i cannot supplement P5P due it exacerbating peripheral neuropathy like symptoms which i had gotten from the hashimoto’s.
What i wanted to ask you was did Isocort cause any Estrogen metabolism issues for you? Because even on the short time on it i noticed nipple issues which i have never gotten before. If i need the Cortisol i will go with HC rather than Isocort.
After getting these bloods back it would be good to discuss results with you but i have not been able to reach you via email. Too busy?
Thanks pmgamer.
One thing which i keep forgetting about is that a lot of my symptoms could be caused by peripheral neuropathy which has been diagnosed by a neurologist after nerve conduction studies and EMG. Even the low body temperature since anything wrong with the nervous system can disrupt body temperature. Just waiting on bloods now to check adrenals and other things and will go from their.
This basically gives you a rundown of what the disorder causes:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000593.htm
I would just like to know why i have it. I have to do a nerve biopsy as well.
Here are some of my results. I am not sure what is happening with me exactly. Yesterday i was playing a bit of tennis then suddenly developed dizziness and nausea. I went home i had a check of my blood glucose levels and it was 3.7 (4.0 – 6.0) but i didn’t feel hungry just nauseated and unsteady. I think had some sugar it went up a bit but back down to 3.9. I then started feeling weak and threw up and went to the ER. Their i was waiting 5 hours and didn’t end up seeing a doctor all the while feeling drowsy and then normal and then drowsy. I ended up going home.
Woke up this morning low blood pressure 90/70 and feel like my heart is racing, but better than yesterday. I still have very little to no appetite during the day, slight more at night and i wake up hungry several times a night. Have tingling in my arms, legs and stomach, with intermittent feelings of exhaustion.
I just got my blood tests back and here are the results was on 60mcg T3 that day:
8am Blood Work:
Homocysteine: 11.2umol/L (4.0 – 11.0) – Think this is too high even though have been taking all that damn methylb12, folinic acid and P5P these past few months
Serum Iron – 27 umol/L (10 – 30)
Transferrin – 34 umol/L (27 – 53)
Transferrin Saturation 40% (12 – 45)
Serum Ferritin – 258 ug/L (20 – 300)
TSH (0.5 – 4.5) mIU/L – 0.11 Low
FT4 – (10 – 20) pmol/L – 8.3 Low
FT3 – (3.5 – 6.0) pmol/L – 4.8Cholesterol – 3.3 mmol/L (3.5 – 5.4) Low
Triglycercides – 1.2 nmol/L (0.1 – 2.0)Cortisol – 618 (120 – 620) nmol/L
ACTH – 9.6 (< 11)Zinc – 14.2 (10.0 – 20.0) umol/L – Last result was 10.9 so it improved.
Testosterone – 22 nmol/L (8.3 – 29)
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin – 139 nmol/L (11 – 71) High
I switched to 150mcg of Plain T4 and its working well so far. Before when i tried it, it just made me feel like crap with same old low body temp but that was before i got the mercury out. Think i just got a reaction from kicking up thyroid yesterday by increasing aldosterone levels because i have seriously not been treating my thyroid properly.
My temps with this have been 36.2C in the morning. Which is awesome. I think i just put myself on a bit of a rollercoaster ride with T3 only. If i add T3 to the T4 now my temps drop so will stay off it for now.
What i have learnt:
– T3 only doesn’t work for most people and can keep you hypo!
– Heavy Metals completely screw up your thyroid and cause thyroid resistance
– Low T can be correctable started with 9.5 T last year (8 – 32) after methylation supplements and mercury removal it is 23 and thats with awfully low thyroid numbers i might add!
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