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is it possible for one to treat low t3 based on symptoms and body temp.my last two blood test showed i have low t3 but i currently have no health ins. if i were to get my hands on say armour would i be able to treat it or is it somthing u must carefully moniter thru labs.
@charliebizz 831 wrote:
is it possible for one to treat low t3 based on symptoms and body temp.my last two blood test showed i have low t3 but i currently have no health ins. if i were to get my hands on say armour would i be able to treat it or is it somthing u must carefully moniter thru labs.
Possibly for a doctor, as I understand they used to treat thyroid this way before the advent of the TSH test.
But even a doctor today would want to monitor labs, and I wouldn’t want to treat myself – with or without labs.
Any ways to save for a single doc visit? free clinic?
@chaos 839 wrote:
Possibly for a doctor, as I understand they used to treat thyroid this way before the advent of the TSH test.
But even a doctor today would want to monitor labs, and I wouldn’t want to treat myself – with or without labs.
Any ways to save for a single doc visit? free clinic?
its hard to have a single doc visit when its somthing u constantly have to moniter plus the price of the labs it would be insane..
im just wondering what kind of damage can be caused by not monitering labs..for example if u take to much you can bring on hyperthyroid symptoms.if its the wrong kind of thyroid medication you would feel nothing or feel worse right? but could you really throw eveything outta wack with out labs
@charliebizz 844 wrote:
its hard to have a single doc visit when its somthing u constantly have to moniter plus the price of the labs it would be insane..
im just wondering what kind of damage can be caused by not monitering labs..for example if u take to much you can bring on hyperthyroid symptoms.if its the wrong kind of thyroid medication you would feel nothing or feel worse right? but could you really throw eveything outta wack with out labs
Charlie,
Back in the day they did not have labs and treated by symptoms. Right now since you are not under a drs care I gave you my recommendations for standard process thyrotropin and to start out slowly and monitor your symptoms. I have sheet that I give to people when they start supplementation on any kind of thyroid regulating OTC to look for signs of over stimulation. There has not been an issue at all. One also could start on iodoral as well since 90% of people I have tested just from a spot urine check from normal lab are either low or 80% of the 90% are non detected . I would start with 12.5 mgs of iodoral for a few days see how you then increase one pill 2 times a day. Iodoral may be just what you need to get both adrenals and thyroid back on track. I prefer iodoral before thyroid support. Giving the fact that you both have estrogen issues and thyroid issues iodoral would be safest place to start.@hardasnails1973 851 wrote:
Charlie,
Back in the day they did not have labs and treated by symptoms. Right now since you are not under a drs care I gave you my recommendations for standard process thyrotropin and to start out slowly and monitor your symptoms. I have sheet that I give to people when they start supplementation on any kind of thyroid regulating OTC to look for signs of over stimulation. There has not been an issue at all. One also could start on iodoral as well since 90% of people I have tested just from a spot urine check from normal lab are either low or 80% of the 90% are non detected . I would start with 12.5 mgs of iodoral for a few days see how you then increase one pill 2 times a day. Iodoral may be just what you need to get both adrenals and thyroid back on track. I prefer iodoral before thyroid support. Giving the fact that you both have estrogen issues and thyroid issues iodoral would be safest place to start.i thought everthing came back good but my testo and thyroid …how do i have estrogen issues
@charliebizz 855 wrote:
i thought everthing came back good but my testo and thyroid …how do i have estrogen issues
Estrogen/T ratio is alittle high. total T 300 e2 was 25.
More so its your thyroid is off charts low.
With iodoral you take care of potenitally both problems@hardasnails1973 856 wrote:
Estrogen/T ratio is alittle high. total T 300 e2 was 25.
More so its your thyroid is off charts low.
With iodoral you take care of potenitally both problemssounds good man i missed your call the other day if you have time gimmie a call anytime after 330 today
@charliebizz 831 wrote:
is it possible for one to treat low t3 based on symptoms and body temp.my last two blood test showed i have low t3 but i currently have no health ins. if i were to get my hands on say armour would i be able to treat it or is it somthing u must carefully moniter thru labs.
I don’t recommend treatment without a physician’s or other qualified health care provider’s help.
One cannot determine if one has low T3 based on signs and symptoms. One needs a lab test to determine where the problem lies.
Symptoms are part of the information that a patient gives to the physician.
Signs are what the physician finds on exam or lab testing.One can determine if a person is clinically hypothyroid. Such a person can be found to be hypothyroid based on the physical exam and history. The physician has to be experienced in determining its presence.
I, often, treat very poor patients, who don’t have health insurance, for hypothyroidism if I can demonstrate that they are physically hypothyroid with supporting information from the history. If I can’t demonstrate they are clinically hypothyroid, then I would not treat the person with thyroid hormone.
Realize that thyroid is a signal.
There are other signaling problems which can look like hypothyroidism, e.g. hypothalamic-pituitary adrenal axis dysregulation with low cortisol production.
If a person has a metabolic-nutritional problem, such as iron deficiency, B-vitamin deficiency, etc., then one can appear to be hypothyroid when the problem actually is the nutritional deficiency.
If these other problems are not assessed for or addressed, then adding thyroid hormone may cause a person to worsen in condition. Adding thyroid hormone also means there is a higher demand for improved nutrition. Not addressing nutritional problems can cause problems similar to being hypothyroid. Further, if thyroid hormone is given to a person, then later these other problems are addressed, the person can get into trouble by becoming hyperthyroid. Thus, one has to also consider lowering thyroid treatment when problem occur. etc.
Of the available thyroid treatments, the safest route is to use Levothyroxine. Once treatment is started, generally I address nutrition to maintain safety, and address the problems that can impair T4 to T3 conversion or T3 availability.
Treatment with Armour Thyroid is more complicated. Certainly some patients benefit a lot. But adrenal function has be be considered. Brain thyroid signaling has to be considered – since some brains prefer T4 than T3 – and adding Armour Thyroid may result in a lower T4 than when treatment began. etc. I like Armour Thyroid, but its use is trickier.
Body temperature is actually complicated. Part of temperature is determined by thyroid hormone’s effect on metabolism. But a large part is also determined by the stress system’s (norepinephrine is the primary signal) effect on metabolism. Thus, at a certain point, some may feel better but this is a tenuous balance since a significant part of energy is being generated by the stress system, which will eventually cause hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysregulation, and the return of hypothyroidism and/or fatigue and/or stress/anxiety. Without experience or lab testing, the break point can be difficult to determine, particularly when Armour Thyroid is used for treatment since treatment with it doesn’t avoid adrenal function dysregulation problems as well as Levothyroxine.
If one has no health insurance and lack of adequate funds, it is highly important to first focus on improving nutritional status to improve one’s health. Then it one has to start on thyroid hormone, the foundation, at least, has been laid to allow a less complicated and risky treatment.
@DrMariano 866 wrote:
I don’t recommend treatment without a physician’s or other qualified health care provider’s help.
One cannot determine if one has low T3 based on signs and symptoms. One needs a lab test to determine where the problem lies.
Symptoms are part of the information that a patient gives to the physician.
Signs are what the physician finds on exam or lab testing.One can determine if a person is clinically hypothyroid. Such a person can be found to be hypothyroid based on the physical exam and history. The physician has to be experienced in determining its presence.
I, often, treat very poor patients, who don’t have health insurance, for hypothyroidism if I can demonstrate that they are physically hypothyroid with supporting information from the history. If I can’t demonstrate they are clinically hypothyroid, then I would not treat the person with thyroid hormone.
Realize that thyroid is a signal.
There are other signaling problems which can look like hypothyroidism, e.g. hypothalamic-pituitary adrenal axis dysregulation with low cortisol production.
If a person has a metabolic-nutritional problem, such as iron deficiency, B-vitamin deficiency, etc., then one can appear to be hypothyroid when the problem actually is the nutritional deficiency.
If these other problems are not assessed for or addressed, then adding thyroid hormone may cause a person to worsen in condition. Adding thyroid hormone also means there is a higher demand for improved nutrition. Not addressing nutritional problems can cause problems similar to being hypothyroid. Further, if thyroid hormone is given to a person, then later these other problems are addressed, the person can get into trouble by becoming hyperthyroid. Thus, one has to also consider lowering thyroid treatment when problem occur. etc.
Of the available thyroid treatments, the safest route is to use Levothyroxine. Once treatment is started, generally I address nutrition to maintain safety, and address the problems that can impair T4 to T3 conversion or T3 availability.
Treatment with Armour Thyroid is more complicated. Certainly some patients benefit a lot. But adrenal function has be be considered. Brain thyroid signaling has to be considered – since some brains prefer T4 than T3 – and adding Armour Thyroid may result in a lower T4 than when treatment began. etc. I like Armour Thyroid, but its use is trickier.
Body temperature is actually complicated. Part of temperature is determined by thyroid hormone’s effect on metabolism. But a large part is also determined by the stress system’s (norepinephrine is the primary signal) effect on metabolism. Thus, at a certain point, some may feel better but this is a tenuous balance since a significant part of energy is being generated by the stress system, which will eventually cause hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysregulation, and the return of hypothyroidism and/or fatigue and/or stress/anxiety. Without experience or lab testing, the break point can be difficult to determine, particularly when Armour Thyroid is used for treatment since treatment with it doesn’t avoid adrenal function dysregulation problems as well as Levothyroxine.
If one has no health insurance and lack of adequate funds, it is highly important to first focus on improving nutritional status to improve one’s health. Then it one has to start on thyroid hormone, the foundation, at least, has been laid to allow a less complicated and risky treatment.
thanks for the reply ive had testing done but due to my union being slow i lost my benifits so i know the numbers.and i also had my t3 checked by a zrt lab test im working with hardasnails on the nutritional aspect.these were my labs from over the winter
tsh 2.13
>0.40-4.50miu/l
t4total 7.7
>6.5-12.5ug/dl
t4 free calculated 2.7
>0.4-3.8ng/dl
t4 free direct dailysis1.5
>0.8-2.7t3 free tracer dialysis
free t3 dialysis 261
>210-448pg/il
t3 total 100
>97-219ng/dlt3uptake 35
>33-35%
t3,total 66
>97-219 ng/dl
thyroid peroxidase ab <10
>35 iu/ml
thyroglobulin ab<20
>20iu mlhow would you approach treaatment with these numbers if you dont mind sharing dr m..
Please note the changes that you have experienced in the past 6 weeks since you have made dietary changes. I think you have a lot of your nutrient basis and balance covered very well. Now one needs to look for ways to feed the thyroid that is why I like iodoral and also standard process thyroptrophin,. I do not look at it as thyroid replacement but rather way to rejuvenate the thyroid. I have used this in the past for people that do not have insurance and helped many feel better.
@charliebizz 868 wrote:
thanks for the reply ive had testing done but due to my union being slow i lost my benifits so i know the numbers.and i also had my t3 checked by a zrt lab test im working with hardasnails on the nutritional aspect.these were my labs from over the winter
tsh 2.13
>0.40-4.50miu/l
t4total 7.7
>6.5-12.5ug/dl
t4 free calculated 2.7
>0.4-3.8ng/dl
t4 free direct dailysis1.5
>0.8-2.7t3 free tracer dialysis
free t3 dialysis 261
>210-448pg/il
t3 total 100
>97-219ng/dlt3uptake 35
>33-35%
t3,total 66
>97-219 ng/dl
thyroid peroxidase ab <10
>35 iu/ml
thyroglobulin ab<20
>20iu mlhow would you approach treaatment with these numbers if you dont mind sharing dr m..
If one only went by the numbers, I want to see the following:
T4 = 8-12
Free T3 = 330 to 420 in adults.If a person has T4 > 8, I would not initially add thyroid hormone. I would attempt to treat the reasons thyroid hormone isn’t converted to T3 and why there many not be enough Free T3. Once I addressed those other factors as well as possible (which include psychiatric illness, psychological issues), then I would consider further optimization of thyroid hormone.
I would want to optimize nutrition particularly the B-vitamins, to help reduce the risk of heart problems on thyroid.
I generally do not treat with thyroid to the point T4 > 12 or Free T3 > 420. I have not needed to do very high dose thyroid hormone treatment in a long time. The primary reason is that I treat the non-thyroid illness also.
The most common dose of T4 I end up using, when non-thyroid illness is addressed, is around 100 to 200 mcg of Levothyroxine a day. With Armour Thyroid, the dose usually ends up being 1 to 3 grains a day. Some patients need more, some need less.
By non-thyroid illness, what I mean are those conditions which impair thyroid signaling, not necessarily thyroid hormone production. However, some non-thyroid conditions also reduce thyroid hormone production. For example, anorexia nervosa may reduce T4 production and T3 production. Treating anorexia nervosa itself may correct thyroid hormone regulation and production, thus adding thyroid hormone isn’t necessarily the first thing to do – though clinically it can be done in some patients with some benefit.
@hardasnails1973 872 wrote:
Please note the changes that you have experienced in the past 6 weeks since you have made dietary changes. I think you have a lot of your nutrient basis and balance covered very well. Now one needs to look for ways to feed the thyroid that is why I like iodoral and also standard process thyroptrophin,. I do not look at it as thyroid replacement but rather way to rejuvenate the thyroid. I have used this in the past for people that do not have insurance and helped many feel better.
the changes were in libido and sleep ..my libido is almost back to normal .i get some morning erections.ive been back to sleeping thru the night and having alittle bit of dreams sometimes.
energy levels have not changed body temp still low.still never feel refreshed upon waking.
also you mentiond standard processed thyrotrophin but never told me to start using it
i think i might try out with straight t3 supplimentation…is there anything i should worry about based on my numbers..and if i went off the medication would i go back to how i was before or could i end up worse off then before the meds
@charliebizz 961 wrote:
i think i might try out with straight t3 supplimentation…is there anything i should worry about based on my numbers..and if i went off the medication would i go back to how i was before or could i end up worse off then before the meds
Straight T3 supplementation will drive T4 down. In some patients, T4 can be nearly zero when T3 treatment is high enough.
This poses a problem. Continuous T4 to T3 conversion helps stabilize T3 levels. But T3 in some people has a short half-life, exposing them to a rollercoaster experience in thyroid hormone levels when using T3 alone.
T3 supplementation in the range 25 to 50 mcg is useful when augmenting treatment of depression. It does not stabilize mood as well as T4 treatment.
I’m wondering if Dr. M’s last comment is what I’ve been experiencing.
Sidenote–
I can’t believe the wealth of knowledge on here. I’ve learned so much more here over any other place I’ve ever visited. I hope to God I can see Dr. M. in October.I can’t believe so many doctors lack such knowledge.
I’m so pissed for spending SO much money on these dimwits! :mad::mad:Charlie, hope you’re feeling better.
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