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My question is would highly elevated thyroid peroxidase autoantibodies pretty much cancel out the low-normal thyroid numbers on my test?
T.S.H – 7.72 (0.4 – 4.00)
Free T4 – 14.7 (12 – 22)
Free T3 – Unknown at presentThyroid Globulin Antibodies – 50* not sure on range but they are elevated
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies – 2069 H – These are highly elevated and the range i believe only goes up to 50.These above we’re done in early 2008.
I have seen many idiot endocrinologists saying i was fine till i decided to test my autoantibodies and thats where i found out where some of my symptoms we’re most likely coming from (chronic constipation, poor appetite/food getting stuck feeling, muscle tone not as good, cold hands and feet, low energy)
This shows you can have Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis and labs are very hard to read one test your anit’s might be off the attack next they are attacking each time you get a different result.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/hashimotos/My wife has this yrs ago the gave her Radio Active Iodine to kill her thyroid so the crap Synthroid they were giving her would work better. It did not help never let anyone do this to you, after 15 yrs of Endo’s and not feeling better all they would offer her was Anti-Depression meds. When she went on Armour 5 yrs ago with my TRT Dr. she started doing better. As her TSH come down the anit’s stopped attacking. She only needed about 120 mgs of armour to do this.
Here is a good link to read about how to read your labs.
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/woliner.htm
PhilElevated thyroglobulin antibodies and thyroid peroxidase antibodies would make one suspicious about the presense of Hashimoto’s thyroiditis as the cause of lower thyroid hormone production.
Note that i prefer to also know Total T4 to help determine what level of thyroid hormone production one has and the limiting dose for thyroid hormone replacement.
When dealing with person 25 years old thyroid antibodies that are both >1000, but the person has mid range ft3,ft4, total t-3 and t-4, rt3. Patient is being administered armour thyroid medicine 2.25 grains split up 2 times a day. The patient also tested mid line on cortisol levels through salvia. So trial of cortef was initiated 10mg, 5 mgs, Would there be a need to push thyroid up higher to counter the antibodies? Every thing has been tried to lower then, but has been unsuccessful. The patient has the concept his thyroid will not be functioning optimally even with mid range readings. Should one just ignore the antibodies or do they need to be taken into consideration when treating this type of thyroid disorder. Numbers are good but still has ed and premature ejaculation. Testosterone is highest it has been naturally, (658), but the shbg is 35, and e2 is 32. I suggested low dosage SSRI to dr and he seemed to agree if the cortef does not work. His ferritin levels where 82.
People on other boards have been telling him that he needs 3-4 grains a day to help lower antibodies.
We ran the iodine spot and load test results where severely deficient,
People with hashimotos are not suppose to take iodine, but if you are deficient in the spot test shouldn’t this be addressed?@hardasnails1973 141 wrote:
When dealing with person 25 years old thyroid antibodies that are both >1000, but the person has mid range ft3,ft4, total t-3 and t-4, rt3. Patient is being administered armour thyroid medicine 2.25 grains split up 2 times a day. The patient also tested mid line on cortisol levels through salvia. So trial of cortef was initiated 10mg, 5 mgs, Would there be a need to push thyroid up higher to counter the antibodies? Every thing has been tried to lower then, but has been unsuccessful. The patient has the concept his thyroid will not be functioning optimally even with mid range readings. Should one just ignore the antibodies or do they need to be taken into consideration when treating this type of thyroid disorder. Numbers are good but still has ed and premature ejaculation. Testosterone is highest it has been naturally, (658), but the shbg is 35, and e2 is 32. I suggested low dosage SSRI to dr and he seemed to agree if the cortef does not work. His ferritin levels where 82.
People on other boards have been telling him that he needs 3-4 grains a day to help lower antibodies.
We ran the iodine spot and load test results where severely deficient,
People with hashimotos are not suppose to take iodine, but if you are deficient in the spot test shouldn’t this be addressed?If one has Grave’s Disease, then so long as excessive thyroid stimulating antibody is present, then adding iodine is asking for even more thyroid hormone to be produced.
Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis is different. Here, the immune system is attacking and attempting to destroy the thyroid gland. There is the thought that iodine can suppress thyroid function. This is called the Wolff-Chaikoff block. However, this usually lasts at most about 24 hours. A prolonged Wollf-Chaikoff block has not been replicated in research.
The rest of the body has a need for iodine. Keeping a person iodine deficient has risks including prostate cancer, breast cancer and other reproductive system cancers.
If a person has Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis, then eventually the thyroid gland is going to be destroyed. The destruction can be slowed by adequately replacing thyroid hormone to help suppress thyroid gland activity. But, in a way, it is a lost cause. It is best to maintain optimized thyroid hormone levels by replacement.
One way to slow down the antibodies may be going on a gluten free diet to help reduce immune system overactivation from gluten. I use this to help reduce antibodies in Grave’s Disease, for example.
Using more cortef is not the answer. AT a certain level, the loss of adrenal function cause dysfunction in other systems.
Reducing a stressed nervous system is another way of helping reduce immune system overactivation. However, since the antibodies are specific for thyroid, this may not help either. Thus it is more important to optimize thyroid hormone level in order to maintain function despite presence of antibodies and the presence of thyroid gland destruction.
Somewhat analogous to this is male-pattern hair loss. In this case, the immune system has targetted hair follicles with antibodies against the hair-follicle-bound-to-DHT complex. Eventually, this wins. DHT reduction can help reduce this. But excessively reducing DHT using a 5-alpha-reductase can also prevent progesterone from stabilizing mood and protecting neurons – e.g. causing anxiety and mood instability. Excessively reducing DHT can also reduce sex drive, increasing estrogen levels and problems from estrogen. Thus sometimes, you have to accept the eventual hair loss, though minimizing it, while maintaining function in the rest of the system.
The big picture has to be kept in mind. And optimal function is the goal. Thus saving the thyroid gland is not necessarily the goal so much as maintaining thyroid signaling activity and function. The thyroid gland is eventually going to be destroyed anyway.
As an aside, a ferritin less than 100 is suboptimal. Optimal is closer to 150 in men. Suboptimal iron results in impaired dopamine production, which reduces sex drive and increases stress. Stress would increase the risk for premature ejaculation since norepinephrine triggers ejaculation. When norepinephrine is at high levels, it is too easy to get an orgasm.
@DrMariano 142 wrote:
If one has Grave’s Disease, then so long as excessive thyroid stimulating antibody is present, then adding iodine is asking for even more thyroid hormone to be produced.
Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis is different. Here, the immune system is attacking and attempting to destroy the thyroid gland. There is the thought that iodine can suppress thyroid function. This is called the Wolff-Chaikoff block. However, this usually lasts at most about 24 hours. A prolonged Wollf-Chaikoff block has not been replicated in research.
The rest of the body has a need for iodine. Keeping a person iodine deficient has risks including prostate cancer, breast cancer and other reproductive system cancers.
If a person has Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis, then eventually the thyroid gland is going to be destroyed. The destruction can be slowed by adequately replacing thyroid hormone to help suppress thyroid gland activity. But, in a way, it is a lost cause. It is best to maintain optimized thyroid hormone levels by replacement.
One way to slow down the antibodies may be going on a gluten free diet to help reduce immune system overactivation from gluten. I use this to help reduce antibodies in Grave’s Disease, for example.
Using more cortef is not the answer. AT a certain level, the loss of adrenal function cause dysfunction in other systems.
Reducing a stressed nervous system is another way of helping reduce immune system overactivation. However, since the antibodies are specific for thyroid, this may not help either. Thus it is more important to optimize thyroid hormone level in order to maintain function despite presence of antibodies and the presence of thyroid gland destruction.
Somewhat analogous to this is male-pattern hair loss. In this case, the immune system has targetted hair follicles with antibodies against the hair-follicle-bound-to-DHT complex. Eventually, this wins. DHT reduction can help reduce this. But excessively reducing DHT using a 5-alpha-reductase can also prevent progesterone from stabilizing mood and protecting neurons – e.g. causing anxiety and mood instability. Excessively reducing DHT can also reduce sex drive, increasing estrogen levels and problems from estrogen. Thus sometimes, you have to accept the eventual hair loss, though minimizing it, while maintaining function in the rest of the system.
The big picture has to be kept in mind. And optimal function is the goal. Thus saving the thyroid gland is not necessarily the goal so much as maintaining thyroid signaling activity and function. The thyroid gland is eventually going to be destroyed anyway.
As an aside, a ferritin less than 100 is suboptimal. Optimal is closer to 150 in men. Suboptimal iron results in impaired dopamine production, which reduces sex drive and increases stress. Stress would increase the risk for premature ejaculation since norepinephrine triggers ejaculation. When norepinephrine is at high levels, it is too easy to get an orgasm.
I am noticing as I increase iron I am tending to have more hair loss, but I am supplementing with zinc, but not copper. Could not supplementing with no copper cause hair loss, muscle mass loss as well as the inability to raise ferritin levels at a steady rate?
What also is the proper way to test for ferritin if one is taking iron supplmenet. My last ferritin level was 82 on 100 mgs of iron at day. My fear is taking large amounts of iron will cause other minerals to get out of balance. My ceruoplasm and copper level serum where already to low to begin. When supplementing iron and having low adrenals to begin with supported by cortef could this push the thyroid harder and cause ones adrenals to require more cortisol. I know feeling of low cortisol and it feels like something has brought it and it occured right around increasing iron.
Currently I am supplementing
100 mgs of iron bisglycine
50 mgs of zinc picolonate
1000 mgs calcium citrate
600 mgs magnesium citrate
50 mgs of iodine
200 mgs selenum
400 mcgs chromium natural
30 mgs manganese
no copper – should i be supplementing copper? I tried 2 years ago 5 mgs of copper with 30 mgs of zinc and copper serum did not budge why I was suspecting potential wilson disease or copper metabolism problemAll of these are seperated according to different meals because of the fact of competing with one another.
@DrMariano 142 wrote:
Somewhat analogous to this is male-pattern hair loss. In this case, the immune system has targetted hair follicles with antibodies against the hair-follicle-bound-to-DHT complex. Eventually, this wins. DHT reduction can help reduce this. But excessively reducing DHT using a 5-alpha-reductase can also prevent progesterone from stabilizing mood and protecting neurons – e.g. causing anxiety and mood instability. Excessively reducing DHT can also reduce sex drive, increasing estrogen levels and problems from estrogen. Thus sometimes, you have to accept the eventual hair loss, though minimizing it, while maintaining function in the rest of the system.
How does a 5AR inhibitor prevent progesterone from stabilizing mood? What if one also took supplemental pregnenolone?
What if one had high DHT to begin with and used a small dose (as I do, 1.25 EOD) to get DHT within range?
@chaos 146 wrote:
How does a 5AR inhibitor prevent progesterone from stabilizing mood? What if one also took supplemental pregnenolone?
What if one had high DHT to begin with and used a small dose (as I do, 1.25 EOD) to get DHT within range?
People that i have come in contact to with that have used proscar or other dht blockers have had severe problem with ed and other related hormone issues. One can only speculate that for some reason it seems to cause estrogen over sensitivity to the receptors. Alot of the symptoms experienced by people relate to issues related to e2 for some unknown reason Please correct if my hypothesis is wrong. I am just reporting from clinical experience from patients I have ran across.
@hardasnails1973 148 wrote:
People that i have come in contact to with that have used proscar or other dht blockers have had severe problem with ed and other related hormone issues. One can only speculate that for some reason it seems to cause estrogen over sensitivity to the receptors. Alot of the symptoms experienced by people relate to issues related to e2 for some unknown reason Please correct if my hypothesis is wrong. I am just reporting from clinical experience from patients I have ran across.
I have heard the same things, though I have experienced no problems myself, fortunately. But I attribute that to naturally over range DHT. With me, I am using enough just to get within range.
I actually take a blood test for DHT tomorrow, I’ll let you know what it looks like.
I do notice that if I miss my pregnenolone, I can develop irritability, etc… and am wondering if this is indeed because of what Dr. Mariano pointed out concerning 5AR and progesterone.
@chaos 151 wrote:
I have heard the same things, though I have experienced no problems myself, fortunately. But I attribute that to naturally over range DHT. With me, I am using enough just to get within range.
I actually take a blood test for DHT tomorrow, I’ll let you know what it looks like.
I do notice that if I miss my pregnenolone, I can develop irritability, etc… and am wondering if this is indeed because of what Dr. Mariano pointed out concerning 5AR and progesterone.
MY DHt is 139 ( 25-75), but l do not have any symptoms off it. but do have BPH, but that is due to my low levels of 2/16,4 hydrox ratios that took so much dim to budge it was not funny. I was trying to use iodine, (not iodoral), but have not feel well since I switch from iodoral. Thats the least thing i am concerned about. The major thing that I am concerned with is excessive drooling coming out of my mouth while just standing around. I know this could indicate neurological conditions and one person also told me to get checked out for ALS. This scars me because when I was going to Iv infusions there was a guy late 30’s that had ALS . 3 months later I went back and he died. This drooling may be also from high histamines as well because my methylation has been screwed from the start with every thing I have been through and has been identified through genetic testing.Mthffr and also methione synthase mutations. I take methyl b-12, folonic acid for this.
@chaos 151 wrote:
I have heard the same things, though I have experienced no problems myself, fortunately. But I attribute that to naturally over range DHT. With me, I am using enough just to get within range.
I actually take a blood test for DHT tomorrow, I’ll let you know what it looks like.I do notice that if I miss my pregnenolone, I can develop irritability, etc… and am wondering if this is indeed because of what Dr. Mariano pointed out concerning 5AR and progesterone.
How much what schedule and what kind of 5AR inhibitor are you using?
Years ago I was using Androgel, 10grams/day
Using 1Avodart pill/day lowered my DHT=29 and 20, range(25-75 ) ng/dL
When I stopped Avodart DHT jumped to 226I was planning to use less Avodart, probably 1/week
but newer implemented it, I was able to get injectable testosterone
Now my DHT=59@JanSz 153 wrote:
How much what schedule and what kind of 5AR inhibitor are you using?
Years ago I was using Androgel, 10grams/day
Using 1Avodart pill/day lowered my DHT=29 and 20, range(25-75 ) ng/dL
When I stopped Avodart DHT jumped to 226I was planning to use less Avodart, probably 1/week
but newer implemented it, I was able to get injectable testosterone
Now my DHT=59Please keep thread on original topic.
Start separate thread if you want to talk about 5AR inhibitors
ThanksWhat im interested to know is if my muscle weakness, sensation of touch reduction and numbness and tingling all over the body, dizziness if standing up too fast is due to this thyroid issue?
I also notice my stomach nerve is always pulsing as well as the nerve in my neck/throat, vagus nerve i believe its called but i have been ruled out of having a aortic dissection.
Or could it be another one of the 100 peripheral neuropathies out their….
My BP is usually low my BP now seems to be better with the folinic acid/B12 higher than usual which is good.
But my chronic constipation and really puffy eyelids seem to me its all hypothyroid.
As hardasnails said doctors spend mear minutes with your case and dismiss you. The problem is all these diseases and their symptoms resemble one another, you could have hypothyroidism or a fluke worm in your brain for all you know.
@MetalMX 76 wrote:
My question is would highly elevated thyroid peroxidase autoantibodies pretty much cancel out the low-normal thyroid numbers on my test?
T.S.H – 7.72 (0.4 – 4.00)
Free T4 – 14.7 (12 – 22)
Free T3 – Unknown at presentThyroid Globulin Antibodies – 50* not sure on range but they are elevated
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies – 2069 H – These are highly elevated and the range i believe only goes up to 50.These above we’re done in early 2008.
I have seen many idiot endocrinologists saying i was fine till i decided to test my autoantibodies and thats where i found out where some of my symptoms we’re most likely coming from (chronic constipation, poor appetite/food getting stuck feeling, muscle tone not as good, cold hands and feet, low energy)
@MetalMX 241 wrote:
What im interested to know is if my muscle weakness, sensation of touch reduction and numbness and tingling all over the body, dizziness if standing up too fast is due to this thyroid issue?
I also notice my stomach nerve is always pulsing as well as the nerve in my neck/throat, vagus nerve i believe its called but i have been ruled out of having a aortic dissection.
Or could it be another one of the 100 peripheral neuropathies out their….
My BP is usually low my BP now seems to be better with the folinic acid/B12 higher than usual which is good.
But my chronic constipation and really puffy eyelids seem to me its all hypothyroid.
As hardasnails said doctors spend mear minutes with your case and dismiss you. The problem is all these diseases and their symptoms resemble one another, you could have hypothyroidism or a fluke worm in your brain for all you know.
It is difficult to dismiss a TSH which is over the reference range (e.g. a TSH > 6) along with high anti-thyroid antibodies, along with a history of problems which may indicate the presence of low thyroid hormone, as being “O.K.” even if the physician has only 6 minutes to see the person. The high TSH blatantly means hypothyroid by any stretch of the imagination.
Thus if one’s physician(s) does not recognize that, then one may have to keep shopping for a doctor who will recognize a textbook case of hypothyroidism (high TSH).
The presence of hypothyroidism may cause the body to have compensatory changes in function. For example, the nervous system may shift to a stressed state to help compensate for the lack of energy. Over time, however, this may over-activate the immune system and may cause hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysregulation, all of which may cause further problems.
HPA axis dysregulation (such as conditions termed “adrenal fatigue), may result in suboptimal cortisol and aldosterone signaling, which may contribute to dizziness, lightheadedness. Stress is heightened since cortisol helps reduce excessive stress signaling.
An overactive immune system may contribute to the development of inflammatory conditions including fibromyalgia, migraine, allergies, asthma, arthritis, etc. An overactive immune system may also result in flu-like symptoms including lack of energy, loss of interest in activities, mood problems, etc.
Prolonged suboptimal thyroid hormone, through secondary changes in bodily function, including a stressed nervous system, may lead to the development of pre-diabetes and diabetes. These would then contribute to metabolic problems leading to nerve damage or nervous system dysfunction, neuropathy, etc.
Thus, one over time, would be dealing with a CASCADE of changes in the body stemming from a single change, in this case, the inability to produce adequate thyroid hormone.
Nutritional problem would exacerbate the signaling and metabolic changes that are occurring. Further nutritional problems – such as the lack of adequate B-vitamins – will cause problems when treated with thyroid hormone (such as the arrhythmias that may occur with thyroid hormone replacement). This will artificially limit thyroid hormone treatment to suboptimal doses if the nutritional deficiencies are not recognized.
@DrMariano 242 wrote:
It is difficult to dismiss a TSH which is over the reference range (e.g. a TSH > 6) along with high anti-thyroid antibodies, along with a history of problems which may indicate the presence of low thyroid hormone, as being “O.K.” even if the physician has only 6 minutes to see the person. The high TSH blatantly means hypothyroid by any stretch of the imagination.
Thus if one’s physician(s) does not recognize that, then one may have to keep shopping for a doctor who will recognize a textbook case of hypothyroidism (high TSH).
The presence of hypothyroidism may cause the body to have compensatory changes in function. For example, the nervous system may shift to a stressed state to help compensate for the lack of energy. Over time, however, this may over-activate the immune system and may cause hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysregulation, all of which may cause further problems.
HPA axis dysregulation (such as conditions termed “adrenal fatigue), may result in suboptimal cortisol and aldosterone signaling, which may contribute to dizziness, lightheadedness. Stress is heightened since cortisol helps reduce excessive stress signaling.
An overactive immune system may contribute to the development of inflammatory conditions including fibromyalgia, migraine, allergies, asthma, arthritis, etc. An overactive immune system may also result in flu-like symptoms including lack of energy, loss of interest in activities, mood problems, etc.
Prolonged suboptimal thyroid hormone, through secondary changes in bodily function, including a stressed nervous system, may lead to the development of pre-diabetes and diabetes. These would then contribute to metabolic problems leading to nerve damage or nervous system dysfunction, neuropathy, etc.
Thus, one over time, would be dealing with a CASCADE of changes in the body stemming from a single change, in this case, the inability to produce adequate thyroid hormone.
Nutritional problem would exacerbate the signaling and metabolic changes that are occurring. Further nutritional problems – such as the lack of adequate B-vitamins – will cause problems when treated with thyroid hormone (such as the arrhythmias that may occur with thyroid hormone replacement). This will artificially limit thyroid hormone treatment to suboptimal doses if the nutritional deficiencies are not recognized.
Very interesting. I understand how its certainly like a domino effect. And this is what i have actually been experiencing. I am working with a good anti-aging/integrative medical specialist. As well as hardasnails who recommended folinic acid/methylb12/P5P which have been extremely helpful in alleivating some of my symptoms.
I am presently about to start armour thyroid 1/2 grain per day and see how i go. Synthyroid and T3/T4 didn’t work for me at all.
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