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Dr. Mariano, have you done any work with the following more recent HGH alternative HRTs I am hearing more about for men and can comment on your experience in terms of their effectiveness, sides, etc.?
HCG
GHRP
GHRP-2
CHRP-6
GHRH
CJC-1295
GRFAnyone else have experience with any of these alone or in combination?
Thanks
@mcs5309 2768 wrote:
Dr. Mariano, have you done any work with the following more recent HGH alternative HRTs I am hearing more about for men and can comment on your experience in terms of their effectiveness, sides, etc.?
HCG
GHRP
GHRP-2
CHRP-6
GHRH
CJC-1295
GRFAnyone else have experience with any of these alone or in combination?
Thanks
I haven’t done any work using alternatives to growth hormone.
There are a few issues:
1. Is there good enough data to show that they work and are safe?
2. Do enough physicians have long enough experience with these to help insure safety?
3. What are the medico-legal issues involved?At this time, these questions have not yet been adequately answered to my satisfaction. If, and when, one of the world experts in growth hormone replacement like Ron Rothenberg MD or Thierry Hertogue MD, for example, can feel comfortable enough to use them regularly and teach about them in an accredited course for continuing medical education, I may consider them.
I think one major driving factor is cost. Yet, often these alternatives can cost just as much as growth hormone itself. Thus, what is the benefit over tried and true growth hormone?
Growth Hormone Secretagogues are a interesting group. Historically they do not work consistently and they can also be very expensive for what they are. If they consist of nutrients, then perhaps safety is not so much an issue.
One such secretagogue that I am monitoring is Secrotropin RX, which is exclusively available in the U.S. from University Compounding Pharmacy in San Diego, a well-established, excellent compounding pharmacy, which sponsors many accredited continuing educational programs. They are also the largest compounding pharmacy in California.
It uses the following synergistic ingredients which can act as Growth Hormone Secretagogues:
* Amino Acids: L-Ornithine, L-Arginine, Ornithine-alpha-Ketoglutarate, Lysine, Glycine, Glutamine.
* GABA: a supplement that is actually the primary inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain.
* L-Dopa: in the form of Mucuna Pruriens (a legume called velvet bean). L-Dopa rapidly is converted to Dopamine, a neurotransmitter in the brain.The ingredients are dissolved in water. They are then wrapped in liposomes (a fatty vesicle). They are then sprayed into the mouth where the liposome makes it easier to be absorbed through the oral mucosa.
Apparently – of which I am skeptical – it can increase one’s own growth hormone production from 50 to 200 %. There is a ceiling which varies with each individual, where excessive doses will end up reducing growth hormone production. It is taken in the morning and evening.
It is a very interesting compound. The use of an oral spray makes it easier to take. The use of nutritional supplements allows one to avoid the legal limitations for growth hormone prescription.
GABA can make a person very tired and sleepy. Thus the tolerability of the morning dose is a question.
The use of Dopamine derived from the Mucuna Pruriens bean is a concern. Potentially it can cause sudden bouts of sleepiness, dizziness and falls, abnormal muscle movements, constipation, and psychotic symptoms including hallucinations. One assumes the content is fairly small to avoid significant problems, hopefully.
Cost is going to be a significant issue – since a person with growth hormone deficiency would be expected to take this for life. Given that this is a compounded group of nutritional supplements, unlike growth hormone, health insurance is not about to pick this up. The out of pocket cost can be significant.
Of course, the use of natural ingredients begs the question of whether or not one can make such a compound for oneself. Fava Beans, for example, also are a good source of L-Dopa, and would be less exotic than Mucuna Pruriens.
I hear what you’re saying with respect to the proven “track record” or HGH, however, the concept of these various peptides (mostly injectable forms) in terms of long term side effects and lack of negative feedback as compared with HGH sounds promising.
In fact, John Crisler DO no longer uses HGH, not just because of the legal issues, but feels HGH restoration is the way to go as opposed to replacement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpLfRaP34_E
(According to Crisler, GHRP-2 & GHRP-6 are listed as supplements).Datbtrue’s link are the most comprehensive links I’ve seen on peptides yet:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/37381-dats-cjc-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides.html
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/37381-dats-cjc-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides.html#post435292Other informative links on these peptides:
Sermorelin:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/sermorelin-better-alternative-human-134255000.html
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00675506
http://www.testosteronetherapy.com/html/sermorelin_advantages.htmlGHRP-2:
http://www.ghrp2.com/ghrp2.phpGHRP-6:
http://peptide-guide.com/GHRP-6.html
http://www.napsgear.net/hgh-peptides-c45/ghrp-6-p429
link removed at request of Kane SmithCJC-1295:
http://peptide-guide.com/CJC-1295_.html
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/igf-1-gh/50813-cjc-1295-8-a.html
http://forum.lef.org/default.aspx?f=36&m=63967Interesting video. Thanks for the link. I enjoy Crisler’s talks.
Note that Sermorelin was discontinued by Serano in 2008, according to the FDA. Thus, whatever you can get must be made through a compounding pharmacy. Crisler noted that the cost of Sermorelin is about equivalent to treatment with Growth Hormone. And, he is disappointed in its efficacy – unless combined with the other peptides.
GHRP-2, GHRP-6, and CJC-1295 are all research hormones. They are not approved by the FDA for any indication.
These peptides are not supplements by any stretch of the definition. You also don’t inject supplements into your body. They clearly are medications, non-FDA approved medications. They also aren’t bio-identical hormones.
Crisler lists GHRP-2 as a medication for sale via his website. I would think, since this isn’t an FDA approved medication that this is a compounded medication. If not, and given its price, I wonder where he obtains it.
Interestingly, the FDA is currently evaluating Tesamorelin (Egrifta) as of May 2010 in a New Drug Application. The proposed use of Tesamorelin is to treat HIV related lipodystrophy (abnormal changes in fat deposition). Given the limited population involved – though it involves 1.1 million patients in the U.S., I wonder how costly this treatment will be.
Note that Growth Hormone, at least, has guidelines for use by a large body such as the Endocrine Society.
They are all explicitly banned substances in college, professional, and Olympics sports – as a group – to include even those peptides that aren’t named.
At this time, the use of the other peptides, despite their promise, is at best skirting close to the edge of malpractice, if not legality. Yes, their use can be justified as appropriate and legal but it comes awfully close to not.
I would like to hear an American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine lawyer discuss the risks of using these peptides in one’s practice.
Crisler, as a D.O. is not as closely monitored as an M.D. As far as I know, he requires the patient to sign a legal contract prohibiting them from suing him. And he practices (when I last knew) without malpractice insurance. And he keeps his treatments limited to a small group of medications and conditions he treats to a small group – thus limiting his exposure. I wonder what else has he done to financially protect himself in the event of a worse case scenario.
I recall years ago, a gynecologist divorced his wife so that she could get the money from his practice. The divorce separate her from the risk of a malpractice lawsuit, as he too practiced without malpractice insurance. One can place one’s belongings under a trust or limited liability partnership – but these can be pierced in a lawsuit.
The bigger worry, actually, is not a malpractice lawsuit, but the medical board inquiry and risk to one’s medical license.
To use the petides would require extensive documentation, legal forms, etc. etc. etc. Try answering medical board when they question your prescriptions for them. It is not fun at all. It isn’t just a lawsuit to worry about, but worse – a medical board inquisition.
Regarding my feel for these, the use of these peptides is like drinking muddy water, where as the use of growth hormone is like clear water, from a doctor prescribing point of view. I’m not comfortable prescribing these peptides.
As Clint Eastwood, the erstwhile major of my town said in his movies, “A man has got to know his limitations.”
I’m going to stay on the sidelines for now, and watch as events unfold, and hope that the waters clear. For this to happen, a large body such as the endocrine society would need to come up with guidelines for its use in adult growth hormone deficiency, as they did with growth hormone.
I agree that they are promising compounds. But…
Out of curiosity, have you used the Secretropin Rx [[url]http://secretropinrx.com][/url] and seen any results with patients from it?
Some anecdotal links on those who’ve experimented with it:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/igf-1-gh/121785-secretropin.html
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/igf-1-gh/121785-secretropin.htmlDr. Mark Gordon video:
http://www.ihealthtube.com/aspx/viewvideo.aspx?v=a3f6b18955f0e9f7I still would wonder how it compares in terms of efficacy and safety as well when compared to the tried and proven rHGH.
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