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A person with low serotonin would be likely to fly off the handle at the most littlest thing. Would a person that is narcissic also possess characteristics of a person with low serotonin? What other imbalances neurologically speaking could be factor in this disorder. I was talking to a freind last night that is a psychologist and every time we would talk about some thing I turned the conversation to an experience I had to related to the topic. This experience usually starts out as relationship to the topic then i go off talking about my self with out even realize I am doing. Consciously I picked up what she was doing by having to rephrase the question a few times to bring me back to the topic in relationship to her, but subconsciously i would continue on not realizing I was even doing it.
As a medical consult should one come out and specific relate your experience with your client? The reason I ask this is that there are pros and cons to every thing. The pro would be be make the person aware that you understand and relate, but doing this in a balanced matter is the key (which I need to work on). The con is that they would have found your weakness and if you are suffering from same thing and still have not figured out what is wrong with yourself. Now the person is thinking “how can he help me if he can not get himself better” This is the most frustrating part of my job. They most complex medical mysterious where the patient has been to over 20 different dr’s and have the issue for 15 years. I can make huge progress with them, but I keep going around in circles with my self. Just when something one thinks you got it figured out something else pops up out of place…My hormones are 80% back to normal, just e2 is still out of balance. Next I want to work on balancing my brain chemistry, and exploring the main source of problem from the start the gut..
A Narcissist is a person possessing very strong self-nurturing skills.
Some of these skills may be so self-centered, they irritate other people. At the extreme, such a person would have Narcissistic Personality Disorder since the self-nurturing skills cause dysfunction in various life areas – such as relationships. And at an even farther extreme, the narcissistic person has Antisocial Personality Disorder. Here, the feelings or well being of other people don’t even matter to the narcissist. Guilt doesn’t even exist for the antisocial.
Narcissists tend to respond to shame more than guilt. Shame is a complex emotion linked to a behavior – where one’s actions fail to achieve one’s expectations of oneself. Guilt is a complex emotion linked to a behavior – where one’s actions break one’s rules for behavior.
A fully compensated narcissist has skills so well-developed that mood stability is maintained. Narcissists generally don’t seek help because their skills are sufficient – even if disruptive – to take care of their own psychological needs.
Narcissism is a psychological adaptation. It is part of the software component of the mind.
Low serotonin, on the other hand, is a hardware problem – as opposed to a software problem.
Narcissism and low serotonin can be independent of each other.
People with low serotonin tend to have excessive norepinephrine production (since serotonin is one of the control signals on norepinephrine). The higher norepinephrine signaling promotes either fear or anger. This can lead to anxiety problems or anger problems. Irritability, “flying off the handle” are example behaviors.
If a person has good narcissistic skills, then this may compensate for the low serotonin levels to a certain extent. Mood stability my thus be maintained. If the narcissistic skills are not good enough, then failure to maintain mood stability occurs. Then the person develops a mood problem. Such a person may be said to have “narcissistic failure”. Only in such a state does a narcissist seek help.
Narcissistic behavior reduces stress – norepinephrine signaling. Thus one can say narcissistic behavior helps avoid serotonin depletion since less serotonin needs to be used to control norepinephrine signaling.
It is highly important in the normal development of a person to develop healthy narcissistic behaviors. There is a balance that needs to be achieved between taking care of one’s self and taking care of others. Often, mental illness occurs when a person does not have adequate narcissistic skills.
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In regard to the question of whether or not one should divulge to one’s clients one’s own problems, I would strongly say avoid doing this.
Divulging one’s problems can create significant problems in the consultant-client/doctor-patient relationship and process. For example:
1. The consultant-client relationship (similarly to the doctor-patient relationship) is a strongly defacto parent-child relationship. Divulging one’s problems can reduce the patient’s trust in one’s skills and judgment. For example, the patient may question if the consultant can customize a treatment for specifically for them or would the consultant use only the same treatment they found to solve their own problem. The patient can ask, is this consultant thinking more of himself or is he thinking of me? Patients want hope for themselves. Having an impaired physician/consultant doesn’t project the image of hope. The patient can also ask, “Is this guy really listening to me?”. It can be a huge turn off to realize the person you turned to for help has big problems themselves. It does not engender confidence.
2. Divulging one’s problems also creates countertransference problems, which will impair one’s ability to read unconscious thoughts in the patient/client, and would impair one’s ability to assess the patient’s/client’s problem from an objective point of view. One becomes blinded by one’s own approach to one’s problems rather than assessing the patient’s problems objectively and customizing a treatment based on what is best for the patient. Divulging one’s problems can significantly muddle the transference issues with a patient. When a patient talks about an issue, is it a projection of a problem in them or is it a projection of a problem which is then modified by knowledge about the consultant/doctor? This makes it much harder to read patients.
3. In a therapeutic relationship, divulging one’s own problems can destroy the therapist-patient relationship in that it can turn the relationship into a friendship rather than a therapeutic relationship. One can’t do therapy well when one is a friend rather than a therapist. Therapeutic neutrality is broken. When a therapist divulges personal issues, psychotherapy often effectively ends.
4. etc. etc.
I agree with Dr. Mariano on his thoughts. Many doctors disclose personal information to their patients (clients), but research has shown, that this practice has little benefit, and it may be disruptive to the physician-patient relationship. Many times when patients come into a visit they feel that their complaint is not being heard. What needs to be looked at is the motivation of the physician to why he/she is sharing his/her personal information. Are they talking about themselves to build rapport? Counterbalance a day of listening to others? Or is there another reason why doctors would draw attention to themselves?
Have you ever had a patient look at you in a visit and give you a blank stare? Patient’s aren’t receptive often times of physician self-disclosures. Patients aren’t prepared for the role reversal and they’re not keen on loosing precious minutes of appointments to something other than their ailments.
I think a physician should begin a session by letting the patient (client), tell his or her story. During the first few moments of the patient’s (client’s), ramblings; it often times provides the most vital clues. Any interruptions, including well-intentioned ones, may disrupt the patient’s stream of consciousness or it may influence their perceptions, which could result in loss of crucial information.
I think when the client initiates the personal discussion of the personal life or disclosure of the physician; it can play a role in putting them at ease. This should however be done only if the patient (client), initiated it. End result..the focus must be kept on the patient (client).
As far as a narcissistic individual, I strongly believe that if an individual acknowledges and sees that he/she has the symptoms of this, they can work on it and be more compromising in general. It won’t happen overnight..but I believe they can change, just as anyone in life can with things facing them. It just takes I believe acknowledging the issue at hand, then making genuine efforts to better understand it and deal with it.
@shan_e_wilson 178 wrote:
What needs to be looked at is the motivation of the physician to why he/she is sharing his/her personal information. Are they talking about themselves to build rapport? Counterbalance a day of listening to others? Or is there another reason why doctors would draw attention to themselves?
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As far as a narcissistic individual, I strongly believe that if an individual acknowledges and sees that he/she has the symptoms of this, they can work on it and be more compromising in general. It won’t happen overnight..but I believe they can change, just as anyone in life can with things facing them. It just takes I believe acknowledging the issue at hand, then making genuine efforts to better understand it and deal with it.Divulging information about oneself is usually an attempt to build a friendship. It is an attempt to seek a common-ground with another person so that two people can identify with each other. It is an attempt to build trust.
A consultant/client or doctor/patient relationship, however, is not a friendship. Again, it is a form of parent-child relationship. The client/patient is seeking the consultant’s sage wisdom and help.
Thanks, for clarifying. The appropriate term is role-reversal. When a parent divulges their problems to the child, they are asking the child, unconsciously, to be the parent. They are asking the child to take care of them. Divulging information about one’s problems may be viewed as a request for help.
The only form of therapy where divulging one’s problem is appropriate is in peer counseling – such as in chemical dependence treatment.
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A well-compensated narcissistic person does not divulge their own problems since their skills already are sufficient to take care of the problems. They don’t seek help from others.
A narcissistic individual who has self-insight, who can acknowledge their own problems, is not a fully self-centered person. Such a person probably has significant care-taking skills. They are a person who can change.
Change can only occur with repeated practice. One of the important components of psychotherapy is that it is a forum for repeated practice. The same issues and skills are worked on over and over – like a coach to a player. This is a core and vital function of therapy. One can’t change by saying something once. It is through repeated practice one improves oneself. Analogous to a parent-child relationship, one function of the therapist is to say the same things over and over and over until the client takes it in and identifies with it. Repeated exposure changes one’s belief system – a term I use for the internal model of reality which we all build from birth, through which we filter all sensory information. Changing one’s belief system and improving one’s behavioral skills are central to therapy.
Thank You for sharing that info. I look forward to learning from you, as well as others on the forums.
@shan_e_wilson 190 wrote:
Thank You for sharing that info. I look forward to learning from you, as well as others on the forums.
Thank you.
I, myself, have a degree in psychobiology, from my undergraduate years. Psychiatry is a natural outcome.
I have developed and am still fleshing out a system for describing the software side of the mind – which is what is changed by psychotherapy and psychosocial interventions – which is also what makes each of us different. The hardware side is very similar for everyone. It is the software the creates individuals. Interestingly, I can easily fit object-relations and self-psychology into this system – which, using my computer science background, I have used object-oriented programming design and the analogy.
In my experience with Narcissists what’s stood out most about them is their deep, but
often masked, need to impress others, with whatever they identify with as their most
brilliant characteristic–be that beauty, athleticism, intelligence or artistic talents, and
their lack of genuine empathy for the feelings of others. Though I’ve also found many
of them do not feel much real empathy for themselves either, having placed a much
greater degree of importance on their external identity, rather than on their authentic
being. They rarely have an introspective nature, which would help them enormously,
but unfortunately isn’t a quality readily available to them.@bereal 1226 wrote:
In my experience with Narcissists what’s stood out most about them is their deep, but
often masked, need to impress others, with whatever they identify with as their most
brilliant characteristic–be that beauty, athleticism, intelligence or artistic talents, and
their lack of genuine empathy for the feelings of others. Though I’ve also found many
of them do not feel much real empathy for themselves either, having placed a much
greater degree of importance on their external identity, rather than on their authentic
being. They rarely have an introspective nature, which would help them enormously,
but unfortunately isn’t a quality readily available to them.What is interesting about personality disorders, such as Narcissitic Personality Disorder, is that if a person qualifies for one disorder, he or she often qualifies for others.
The need to impress others is a Dependent trait, i.e. a trait of Dependent Personality Disorder.
A person who has Narcissitic Personality Disorder already believes in their own self-importance. They also have strong self-nurturing skills, even if this is exploitive of others. Thus, technically they don’t have to please or impress others. The admiration from others is expected. They feel entitled to it.
When they require admiration, it is because they feel entitled to it. Thus, they may become enraged when they don’t get it. It is an expected behavior from others as opposed to something they try to gain from others.
Many times, a narcissistic person has been raised by overindulgent parents and have been given excessive praise by adults as they grow up (e.g. the athlete star or the trust fund babies of the wealthy). Many times, narcissistic behavior is a compensation (or overcompensation) for a negative childhood (e.g. the abused hollywood star).
I agree. They don’t have empathy for others. They often lack insight on their own emotional problems, instead are prone externalizing blame.
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Narcissiam means one has an expected and grandiose sense of one’s self-worth. And usually one has enough narcissistic skills to take care of one’s ego. This is why Narcissists seldom come to therapy. They are usually successful in caring for themselves – despite the problems their behaviors cause others.
However, when their skills fail them they may feel devastated since they may realize they have not met their own expectations. This is called “narcissistic failure”. In such an event, a Narcissist will feel shame.
Shame is the only complex emotion that can stop a Narcissist and get a Narcissist to realize their failures and to seek help. The problem of shame, however, is that it also brings on the tendency to hide. People who experience shame often do not want to talk about the problems. If shame is not too great, then the person may have a chance to seek help.
just to add. Beyond shame, many a narcissist will turn around when faced with abandonment. Narcissism may be presented as an intrusive, insensitive individual or sometimes as an entitled, dependent individual. I have often referred to the latter as “the tyranny of the weak”.
Found the discussion of serotonin and NOR relative to narcissism very interesting. So what then would the neurotransmitter deficit or excess for borderline PD? Low SE, high NE, low endorphins ?
@Pat Quigley 1284 wrote:
just to add. Beyond shame, many a narcissist will turn around when faced with abandonment. Narcissism may be presented as an intrusive, insensitive individual or sometimes as an entitled, dependent individual. I have often referred to the latter as “the tyranny of the weak”.
Sometimes both qualities can exist in one person and alternate depending on their mood and life circumstances.
People can be much more complex than the criteria in the diagnostic manual can fully account for.What comes to mind is the lion, “king of the forest,” in The Wizard of Oz. Before his transformation of getting a
heart, he’s both the bragging insensitive showman and the tyrannical coward.
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