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when I had adrenal issues, my DHEA was 3x the upper limit. After getting on HC for a period of time, my DHEA went low, so I added DHEA at that time – 25mg 2x per day.
This gentlemen mentions his DHEA was fine, but perhaps it was fine PRIOR to starting HC therapy. If so, I think it would make sense to retest and see where ALL his hormones stand.
As Dr. M mentions HC will supress other hormones and that is what could have happened over a 4 month period.
@DrMariano 603 wrote:
AHA.
When things are working well then something suddenly changes, the something else happened.
For example, psychiatrists have often talked about how antidepressants somehow “poop out”. That is, they stop working after a time of working well.
I don’t believe they DO NOT poop out at all. I believe the antidepressant was working the same way all alone. However, something else happened so that the person would again become depressed. For example, perhaps thyroid hormone went down due to aging, perhaps the person’s nutrition went off and they developed B12 deficiency or iron deficiency. In these cases, the antidepressant is doing the same job it has always had. But the person’s body changed. This change is what caused the person to become ill again.
So the question would be, if a person who has adrenal insufficiency and hypothyroidism is doing well for a time on treatment of both conditions, what else happened in the body to cause the person to worsen.
Winter, itself, is a huge stress. Low environmental temperature is a huge physiologic stress. This stress is enough to cause a person to become depressed, anxious, or even manic. And as the weather warms, a person gets better again.
However, outside of the weather, the problem is, what else is missing that would cause a person to topple down and worsen in condition.
For example, with an anxious person, and more stress, the lack of additional adrenal supportive treatments other than hydrocortisone, can worsen the person’s response to a significant stress.
For example, when a person runs out of B-vitamins or other nutrients, then thyroid hormone stops working and a person could worsen. With cortisol onboard, T4 to T3 conversion could improve. But then without adequate nutrition, this actually can be a bad situation since more thyroid hormone can worsen adrenal function or cause further deficiencies of nutrients since they would be used up faster. Thus the cortisol dose may have to be lowered if taking this into account. Thus, nutritional status is very important to assess.
@DrMariano 603 wrote:
AHA.
When things are working well then something suddenly changes, the something else happened.
For example, psychiatrists have often talked about how antidepressants somehow “poop out”. That is, they stop working after a time of working well.
I don’t believe they DO NOT poop out at all. I believe the antidepressant was working the same way all alone. However, something else happened so that the person would again become depressed. For example, perhaps thyroid hormone went down due to aging, perhaps the person’s nutrition went off and they developed B12 deficiency or iron deficiency. In these cases, the antidepressant is doing the same job it has always had. But the person’s body changed. This change is what caused the person to become ill again.
So the question would be, if a person who has adrenal insufficiency and hypothyroidism is doing well for a time on treatment of both conditions, what else happened in the body to cause the person to worsen.
Winter, itself, is a huge stress. Low environmental temperature is a huge physiologic stress. This stress is enough to cause a person to become depressed, anxious, or even manic. And as the weather warms, a person gets better again.
However, outside of the weather, the problem is, what else is missing that would cause a person to topple down and worsen in condition.
For example, with an anxious person, and more stress, the lack of additional adrenal supportive treatments other than hydrocortisone, can worsen the person’s response to a significant stress.
For example, when a person runs out of B-vitamins or other nutrients, then thyroid hormone stops working and a person could worsen. With cortisol onboard, T4 to T3 conversion could improve. But then without adequate nutrition, this actually can be a bad situation since more thyroid hormone can worsen adrenal function or cause further deficiencies of nutrients since they would be used up faster. Thus the cortisol dose may have to be lowered if taking this into account. Thus, nutritional status is very important to assess.
Thanks you Dr. M,
Nothing changed that drasctically that could make me react this way to HC. I’m speaking of nutrition here.. My diet is very healthy. consistently.. I made that effort last October and have stuck with it. absolutely no processed foods. I eat at home everynight.
So, my main question is do you think thata benzodiazepine would interfere with HC?
If I could only find clinical evidence anywhere, I would be willing to detox off that med.
However, I just don’t know. I have researched this and cannot come up with anything.
Thanks again.I am a woman if you are referring to me. LOL..
I had my DHEA tested on it and off it.. It is not fine according to labs. Mine came back high.
@hardasnails1973 608 wrote:
Many people get HC from over seas and self administered it with out Dr supervision. I had one client from over seas when verified through saliva, blood, and urine that the HC he was using was fake. I suggested that he take the HC one hour before the cortisol am draw to see if it was going to spike to normal range. The results were surprising to him, but to myself it would it make most logical sense. The clients salvia, blood, urine test were border line Addison’s as his levels were barely registering. I suggested that he goto the nearest endocronologist to get properly evaluated. If you are using over seas meds or even generic HC it may not be suitable for your body. I have had several people you were given generic HC when cortef was called in by the Dr. When they switched to cortef they started to feel better. For some people generic meds just do not work and can end up making people worse.
Hi HAN,
I would be scared to death to order meds from over seas. I never do anything without consulting a doctor.. I am afraid to self medicate. Mine was cortef…. I know some people have to, because doctors won’t cooperate. I hope I never have to. Having a hard time with doctors however….
thanks…@mylilcappi 613 wrote:
Hi HAN,
I would be scared to death to order meds from over seas. I never do anything without consulting a doctor.. I am afraid to self medicate. Mine was cortef…. I know some people have to, because doctors won’t cooperate. I hope I never have to. Having a hard time with doctors however….
thanks…I believe the best solution now to answer your questions would to see exactly what your hormones are doing in a given 24 hour period. I would look into a 24 hour Rherns urine test to get an over all picture of what is really going on. Some times progesterone is not the answer but to look at the down streams of what the DHEA is doing. By having adrenal and the thyroid imbalances these do cause alteration in Bad vs good estrogens. It would be crucial to see what your body is doing with that dhea and other hormones.
Yeah I read that on the other board HAN.. But someone came back and stated that you can’t do that without a doctor’s orders.. Don’t think my doctor would do that.. I will suggest it, but that was a response on NT board. I even went to the website..
@DrMariano 603 wrote:
AHA.
When things are working well then something suddenly changes, the something else happened.
For example, psychiatrists have often talked about how antidepressants somehow “poop out”. That is, they stop working after a time of working well.
I don’t believe they DO NOT poop out at all. I believe the antidepressant was working the same way all alone. However, something else happened so that the person would again become depressed. For example, perhaps thyroid hormone went down due to aging, perhaps the person’s nutrition went off and they developed B12 deficiency or iron deficiency. In these cases, the antidepressant is doing the same job it has always had. But the person’s body changed. This change is what caused the person to become ill again.
So the question would be, if a person who has adrenal insufficiency and hypothyroidism is doing well for a time on treatment of both conditions, what else happened in the body to cause the person to worsen.
Winter, itself, is a huge stress. Low environmental temperature is a huge physiologic stress. This stress is enough to cause a person to become depressed, anxious, or even manic. And as the weather warms, a person gets better again.
However, outside of the weather, the problem is, what else is missing that would cause a person to topple down and worsen in condition.
For example, with an anxious person, and more stress, the lack of additional adrenal supportive treatments other than hydrocortisone, can worsen the person’s response to a significant stress.
For example, when a person runs out of B-vitamins or other nutrients, then thyroid hormone stops working and a person could worsen. With cortisol onboard, T4 to T3 conversion could improve. But then without adequate nutrition, this actually can be a bad situation since more thyroid hormone can worsen adrenal function or cause further deficiencies of nutrients since they would be used up faster. Thus the cortisol dose may have to be lowered if taking this into account. Thus, nutritional status is very important to assess.
Dr M,
When I was reading other posts, I came across where you said about the heart jumping around like a ball or something similar to that. That is what my heart is doing now, and I know why. I think. My thyroid med is not getting into my cells. I had an ultrasound, EKG, and wore a heart monitor for 24 hours.. Came back normal.. But I feel like I’m on a trampoline when I am laying down.. He prescribed Toprol..
I tried to explain it was my thyroid, but he would not listen..@mylilcappi 621 wrote:
Dr M,
When I was reading other posts, I came across where you said about the heart jumping around like a ball or something similar to that. That is what my heart is doing now, and I know why. I think. My thyroid med is not getting into my cells. I had an ultrasound, EKG, and wore a heart monitor for 24 hours.. Came back normal.. But I feel like I’m on a trampoline when I am laying down.. He prescribed Toprol..
I tried to explain it was my thyroid, but he would not listen..I define palpitations as excessively strong contractions of the heart that feel as if the heart is bouncing in one’s chest like a ball. It is uncomfortable to sleep on one’s chest when this occurs. The hyperdynamic heart contractions are palpable.
Generally, when doing hormone replacement therapy, this occurs when thyroid hormone is at too high a dose compared to the adrenal output of cortisol and other cortex hormones – even if one is hypothyroid. When this occurs, adrenal output of cortisol falls, norepinephrine increases, which then norepinephrine causes excessively strong heart contractions. It is important in this case to try and improve hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis regulation so that adequate adrenal cortex output can occur to match up to the addition of thyroid.
—
Toprol – a beta blocker – not only blocks norepinephrine and reduces palpitations, it also prevents conversion of T4 to T3. Norepinephrine increases the production of deiodinase enzyme which converts T4 to T3. Toprol thus contributes to hypothyroidism. This is one way it contributes to depression.
—
By what evidence do you know that thyroid hormone is not getting into your cells?
@mylilcappi 612 wrote:
I am a woman if you are referring to me. LOL..
I had my DHEA tested on it and off it.. It is not fine according to labs. Mine came back high.
DHEA is not a good test since DHEA levels vary too frequently from very high to very low.
DHEA-s gives much more stable levels and is a better measure of DHEA output.
@DrMariano 623 wrote:
I define palpitations as excessively strong contractions of the heart that feel as if the heart is bouncing in one’s chest like a ball. It is uncomfortable to sleep on one’s chest when this occurs. The hyperdynamic heart contractions are palpable.
Generally, when doing hormone replacement therapy, this occurs when thyroid hormone is at too high a dose compared to the adrenal output of cortisol and other cortex hormones – even if one is hypothyroid. When this occurs, adrenal output of cortisol falls, norepinephrine increases, which then norepinephrine causes excessively strong heart contractions. It is important in this case to try and improve hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis regulation so that adequate adrenal cortex output can occur to match up to the addition of thyroid.
—
Toprol – a beta blocker – not only blocks norepinephrine and reduces palpitations, it also prevents conversion of T4 to T3. Norepinephrine increases the production of deiodinase enzyme which converts T4 to T3. Toprol thus contributes to hypothyroidism. This is one way it contributes to depression.
—
By what evidence do you know that thyroid hormone is not getting into your cells?
thank you Dr. M,
I know.. I just don’t know how to do that right now. That is improve the HPA axis. when I can’t take HC.. Oh that’s not such good news about Toprol.. I only started it last night.I know that the thyroid is not getting into my cells simply by my symptoms. I have been hypo due to RAI for ten years. I was doing just fine on T4 alone. No depression, had energy, etc.. Just enjoying my life. I was a good converter. But now, I can just tell by everything.. Every aspect of my life. And I THINK it is because I don’t have the cortisol to help the thyroid get into my cells. I have been told that T4 alone will put more stress on the adrenals without enough cortisol. But I am afraid to stop taking my Levoxyl because basically, I don’t have a thyroid and I don’t know what it will do to me by not taking it, even though I can’t take HC.
As I have mentioned several times, and since you are so knowledgeable about meds and there interactions, do you think that the Klonopin and the HC are interacting? Because like I said I would be willing to come off of K if that were the case. I would just like your opinion on this if you have one.
thanks…..@DrMariano 624 wrote:
DHEA is not a good test since DHEA levels vary too frequently from very high to very low.
DHEA-s gives much more stable levels and is a better measure of DHEA output.
They were DHEA-S.. that S somehow gets left out alot.. But yes, it was DHEA-s…..
@DrMariano 623 wrote:
I define palpitations as excessively strong contractions of the heart that feel as if the heart is bouncing in one’s chest like a ball. It is uncomfortable to sleep on one’s chest when this occurs. The hyperdynamic heart contractions are palpable.
Generally, when doing hormone replacement therapy, this occurs when thyroid hormone is at too high a dose compared to the adrenal output of cortisol and other cortex hormones – even if one is hypothyroid. When this occurs, adrenal output of cortisol falls, norepinephrine increases, which then norepinephrine causes excessively strong heart contractions. It is important in this case to try and improve hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis regulation so that adequate adrenal cortex output can occur to match up to the addition of thyroid.
—
Toprol – a beta blocker – not only blocks norepinephrine and reduces palpitations, it also prevents conversion of T4 to T3. Norepinephrine increases the production of deiodinase enzyme which converts T4 to T3. Toprol thus contributes to hypothyroidism. This is one way it contributes to depression.
By what evidence do you know that thyroid hormone is not getting into your cells?
What about Nifedipine. I know this is a calcium channel blocker, and I know I need to get this straightened out, but this heart thing is scary and annoying to say the least. I knew when I read what you wrote, how you described it that that is what is happening to me..
@DrMariano 623 wrote:
I define palpitations as excessively strong contractions of the heart that feel as if the heart is bouncing in one’s chest like a ball. It is uncomfortable to sleep on one’s chest when this occurs. The hyperdynamic heart contractions are palpable.
Generally, when doing hormone replacement therapy, this occurs when thyroid hormone is at too high a dose compared to the adrenal output of cortisol and other cortex hormones – even if one is hypothyroid. When this occurs, adrenal output of cortisol falls, norepinephrine increases, which then norepinephrine causes excessively strong heart contractions. It is important in this case to try and improve hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis regulation so that adequate adrenal cortex output can occur to match up to the addition of thyroid.
—
Toprol – a beta blocker – not only blocks norepinephrine and reduces palpitations, it also prevents conversion of T4 to T3. Norepinephrine increases the production of deiodinase enzyme which converts T4 to T3. Toprol thus contributes to hypothyroidism. This is one way it contributes to depression.
—
By what evidence do you know that thyroid hormone is not getting into your cells?
Wait a minute.. GEEZE… It’s Lopressor that I just started to take.. Not toprol..
I looked at the bottle when i got it.. I knew that.. don’t know why I said toprol…I am Hypopituitary so I need to replace a lot of Hormones the Pituitary is not telling my body to make. I was on Testosterone meds for 23 yrs told I was Primary it was when I got my Dr. to add in HCG to my Testosterone shots that we found my Testis do work on 500 IU’s of HCG my Testosterone levels for Total T doubled. We did an MRI on my Pituitary and nothing showed up. But it was after a bad auto accident 27 yrs ago that I started to get sick. I have been on Testosterone treatment now for 27 yrs. It was 5 yrs ago the we found I am Hypopituitary do to the accident where I had a head injury.
Going back over old labs they were screaming I have a pituitary problem on my First set of labs testing Total and Free Testosterone with my LH and FSH they were all low. Still Dr.’s missed this.
Five yrs. ago my Dr. started to treat my low cortisol levels after doing a 4x’s in a day Saliva Test this show me very low. So he then did an ACTH Stim. test this showed me to be Seconday.
I started on HC Cortef working my way up to 5mgs 4x’s a day starting with 2.5 mgs and going up 2.5 mgs every 5 days. Then we added Armour starting with 1 grain per day we treated the low Cortisol first so that there was enough in my blood to carry the Thyroid hormones out of my blood into my cells. Today I am doing 30 mgs of Cortef a day starting with 10 mgs at 5am then 5mgs at 9am and 10 mgs more at 1pm then 5 mgs at 6pm. We had to do this because the normal 20 mgs a day was not supporting my Adreanls or body with enough HC I was needing to stress dose a lot and working out side I ended up in the ER in Adrenal failure 2x’s where the Dr. needed to give me a big shot of HC.
My Dr. tests my Cortisol levels not to tell if my cortisol or HC meds are working but to tell if I am on to much. You can’t tell if your low on cortisol taking HC you need to be off it 2 weeks coming down slow. When Hardasnails said he had this person check there cortisol levels after taking there HC and there levels showed up low this did not mean the HC was not working it meant it was to strong. As your doing HC and you test your Cortisol levels and they show up say about 12 this means your not on to much HC and not shutting down your Adreanls.
I also tested my Aldosterone and Renin levels and had to go on florinef and Sea Salt. Funny thing with I did this I was always low on DHEA and after going on florinef and Salt my DHEA levels come way up over the top of the range. So I was able to stop taking DHEA.
I check my progesterone, DHEA, aldosterone, testosterone, estradiol, thyroid and Iron Ferritin every 8 weeks. We don’t test pregnenolone because Dr. John says you can’t get good labs for pregnenolone in men they allways come back low. So as long as progesterone levels are good then Pregnenolone must be OK. I don’t supplement Pregnenolone because I do shots of HCG and adding Pregnenolone drives up my Estradiol levels. I take .25 mgs every 2 to 3 days of Arimidex to keep my Estradiol levels down.
Here are some links I came across that helped me a lot to get tested and to treat this problem.
http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=256The first book I read about low cortisol level was “Safe uses of Cortisol” by Dr. Jefferies here is a link to the best parts of his book.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-usesI am just getting over Heart bypass sugary and the Dr.’s took me off all my hormone meds before the sugary. I feel that there doing this dam near killed me they let my Testosterone levels crash. I am now recovering been out of the hosp. 5 months still can’t do much I have very sore joints and muscles. I try to go for walks and when I do I suffer with pain after for about 4 days. I was taken off florinef and Sea Salt and put on a low salt diet. We are now getting hot weather here in Mi. and I am finding I can’t take the heat this is the same problems I had before going on florinef and Sea Salt. So now I am in between a rock and a hard place. I was out cold 17 weeks from the heart sugary every thing went wrong. I lost a lot of muscle and needed a lot of therapy to learn how to even walk again.
Still I feel my sore joints and muscles after all this time are due to my need for florinef and Sea Salt. So all I can do it test for this again and fight to get it treated again. I am not sure Heart surgeons are up on low hormones. They took me off most of the and let me crash. So I hope this helps others with this problem so you do something to make sure your not taken off your meds if you ever need sugary. Make a list of your needs and give it to your family members not just one but most of the close ones. Give this to your family Dr. also so this does not happen to you.
I can’t thank Dr. M enough for all his help he gave use men at MESO’s web site with his posts.
Phil@pmgamer18 665 wrote:
Still I feel my sore joints and muscles after all this time are due to my need for florinef and Sea Salt. So all I can do it test for this again and fight to get it treated again. I am not sure Heart surgeons are up on low hormones. They took me off most of the and let me crash. So I hope this helps others with this problem so you do something to make sure your not taken off your meds if you ever need sugary. Make a list of your needs and give it to your family members not just one but most of the close ones. Give this to your family Dr. also so this does not happen to you.
Look up Dave Brownstein MD. He’s in Michigan. His website is https://www.drbrownstein.com
He did a lot of research on salt and wrote a book on it.
What is interesting, he pointed out to me, is that in the U.S. Government’s own national studies, more people on low salt diets die of heart attacks than people with normal or high salt diets.
He noted to me that there is very little actual data that low salt diets help reduce blood pressure. It does not help most people lower blood pressure. And low salt diets may do more harm than good.
Dave frequently puts people on 10 grams a day of sea salt to improve their health – including lowering blood pressure.
It makes sense in that increasing the body’s salt content reduces renin production, which then leads to reduced angiotensin II, reduced norepinephrine signaling, and reduced blood pressure.
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