Dr. M. Need Help with Anxiety, Depression and Norepinephrine

[corky1121]

What is the relationship of high norepinephrine (NE) and anxiety and depression? On a recent lab the doctor tested the NE and it was very high at 788 (0-399), dopamine was 14 (0-142) . I don’t ever feel manic, in fact mostly, I feel blah, but I do have daily pain issues that cause me anxiety most of the time. In fact at this point I feel I have general anxiety disorder because of the problems I have with pain. I’m also menopausal with very unbalanced estrogen, progesterone, thyroid.

At the time of the blood draw I was feeling very anxious because I had a bad muscle spasm in my back and I was afraid I wouldn’t be able to drive there and back. I was also nervous about all the blood being drawn.

Is it possible to get a very high NE level due to a temporary issue such as the pain and the blood draw? Should I take it again on a better day?

I have had many emotional upsets, surgeries, post traumatic stress (9/11), to name a few over the years coupled with the menopause stuff. I’ve read that one can get locked into a high NE state by just one incident and not realize it’s affect on the body until many breakdowns start to occur: thyroid, etc.

My ferritin level is still low at 53, and Vitamin D still low at 46.1, working on those.
Total T3 185,
Total T4 7.0
Free T3: 3.6
Free T4: 1.15
Reverse: 219 (down from 390 on 10mcg of Cytomel)
Cortisol 18.6 (on 7.5mg HC before draw)
Estradiol: 12 (day 18)
Progesterone: 1.1 (day 18)

Is the high NE level I got because of a temporary anxiety during the blood draw, or is
it directly related to my hormone levels above and my history of stresses? If it’s the latter, how can I lower this level? Do I do it by increasing my ferritin, D, and hormone levels only? Or do I also need to seek professional therapy too? Is it also the cause
of all my aches and pains and depression?

[hardasnails1973]

More so you need to look at what causes high norephinepherine. One of these issue common with women would be low progesterone:estrodial ratio. I see this very common in many women >30 years old and even a few younger. To much estrogen will cause excessive symptathetic CNS response resulting in high norepinephrine levels. When progesterone is add to balance it out there is a more parasympathetic response through its activation on the gaba receptor.

[corky1121]

I still think it could be a temporary spike, no? Because my estradiol level was 12 and that is way, way low. It should be 100 or a little above to feel normal. Also the progesterone of 1.1 at that time was also very low, so both are low. I really don’t think I have very high levels of estrogen at all, but I suppose I must wait for further tests. Right now I am in the middle of a 3 day migraine that I get once in a while and I think that is from low estrogen and I’m using my estradiol gel too. Go figure.

I do think I need more Progesterone in relation to the E, but I’m still trying to find the exact culprit for the high NE. That little bit of info made me nervous. I’m wondering if it wasn’t a temporary spike and maybe I’ve had that all along and maybe I’m just locked in some depressive, anxiety mode from life stresses??? Maybe I need to take what I dread, SSRI, or anxiety med?? I really felt treating hormone issues would help, but now I’m not so sure. I hope your Dr. M can shed some light on this for me as well.

[hardasnails1973]

Until You get ferritin levels at optimal levels 100-120 one can not know truly how hormones are truly interacting at the tissue level. Do not try to micromanage one aspect of the puzzle you need to look over all picture this will give you more anxiety. High norephineperine could be from a bad night sleep that night or just a fluke. One can look at the interaction of all hormones and neurotransmitters still never figure out the cause due to the amount of variables in the equation. The simplest thing I tell people is to focus on what are the major imbalances rather then trying to look at the minor. Fixing the major imbalances will cause a domino effect to take help balance rest of the body provided proper lifestyle, nutrition, good sleep hygiene.

[corky1121]

I will keep checking my ferritin. I had my HIDA scan yesterday of the gall bladder and it seems from the technician that it looks normal. Today again I have more stomach pain for a little while. I didn’t take my iron yet, but I’m wondering if the iron supplements tore up my stomach or if it’s the HC.

Yesterday I couldn’t take any meds and the test took awhile and I just plumb forgot to take any the rest of the day. No NT, T3 or HC and I was okay and I don’t think I got any pain yesterday. Today I took my 7.5mg morning dose of HC and 1 grain and 5T3 (sub on those) and around an hour ago I started noticing the pains.

I’m going to just drop the one dose a day (5mg). So today I’m taking only 1 more dose around 5pm. And then I’ll get off it quicker. If I didn’t notice any adverse affects yesterday with no HC maybe I”ll be okay.

I also wonder if the pain is just slow digestion from low thyroid. You said my levels were okay, so I can’t be pooling, correct?

The pain almost feels like gas because at some points I do have to burp a lot.

I can’t take digestive enzymes until I get the endoscope to rule out ulcer. So the only thing I can do for now is eliminate the HC to see if it was causing some problem. If that continues then I’ll have to eliminate the iron, but I really need that, so what to do? Iron can also irritate the stomach. And, I do have a hiatus hernia, but the Aciphex usually takes care of that and I have no burning, just this other weird intense pain in the pit of my stomach that can last for hours.

Just more anxiety for me with this new symptom that is at times very unbearable.

[hardasnails1973]

@corky1121 1561 wrote:

I will keep checking my ferritin. I had my HIDA scan yesterday of the gall bladder and it seems from the technician that it looks normal. Today again I have more stomach pain for a little while. I didn’t take my iron yet, but I’m wondering if the iron supplements tore up my stomach or if it’s the HC.

Yesterday I couldn’t take any meds and the test took awhile and I just plumb forgot to take any the rest of the day. No NT, T3 or HC and I was okay and I don’t think I got any pain yesterday. Today I took my 7.5mg morning dose of HC and 1 grain and 5T3 (sub on those) and around an hour ago I started noticing the pains.

I’m going to just drop the one dose a day (5mg). So today I’m taking only 1 more dose around 5pm. And then I’ll get off it quicker. If I didn’t notice any adverse affects yesterday with no HC maybe I”ll be okay.

I also wonder if the pain is just slow digestion from low thyroid. You said my levels were okay, so I can’t be pooling, correct?

The pain almost feels like gas because at some points I do have to burp a lot.

I can’t take digestive enzymes until I get the endoscope to rule out ulcer. So the only thing I can do for now is eliminate the HC to see if it was causing some problem. If that continues then I’ll have to eliminate the iron, but I really need that, so what to do? Iron can also irritate the stomach. And, I do have a hiatus hernia, but the Aciphex usually takes care of that and I have no burning, just this other weird intense pain in the pit of my stomach that can last for hours.

Just more anxiety for me with this new symptom that is at times very unbearable.

you can take enyzmes one that are plant based such as omega -zyme from garden of life are fine because there is no HCL in them or bile acid. Go slow on the HC coming down do not get anxious and drop to fast.

[allie]

@hardasnails1973 1554 wrote:

Until You get ferritin levels at optimal levels 100-120 one can not know truly how hormones are truly interacting at the tissue level. Do not try to micromanage one aspect of the puzzle you need to look over all picture this will give you more anxiety. High norephineperine could be from a bad night sleep that night or just a fluke. One can look at the interaction of all hormones and neurotransmitters still never figure out the cause due to the amount of variables in the equation. The simplest thing I tell people is to focus on what are the major imbalances rather then trying to look at the minor. Fixing the major imbalances will cause a domino effect to take help balance rest of the body provided proper lifestyle, nutrition, good sleep hygiene.

So, from the other forum board I am finding out that I won’t be able to tolerate my Thyroid meds until my ferritin levels are straightened out. My naturalpathic Dr told me to go on slow release T3 , 4 isocort and forget about the anemia , it would sort itself out after the thryoid is optimized????
I’m so confused. But it doesn’t take much with a ferritin of 14!
Ferritin is 14.

[hardasnails1973]

@allie 1565 wrote:

So, from the other forum board I am finding out that I won’t be able to tolerate my Thyroid meds until my ferritin levels are straightened out. My naturalpathic Dr told me to go on slow release T3 , 4 isocort and forget about the anemia , it would sort itself out after the thryoid is optimized????
I’m so confused. But it doesn’t take much with a ferritin of 14!
Ferritin is 14.

Ferritin is involved with thyroid signaling at the tissue level. Thyroid is needed to uptake ferritin from the intestinal tract. Slow release t3 is a sham. One can use plain old t3 and to the same job. With ferritin of 14 I be concerned to reason why. Have you had an upper endoscopy done because just recently we had a person that had inflammation in his esophagus that caused his ferritin levels as well as other iron marketers to drop. Your ND doe not understand the intricate understandings of the hormone system. Your ND if he is a true ND should be ruling out why ferritin is low rather then just say “it will work it self out in the end”. IMO that is just plain laziness like most traditional Dr’s. I be looking for another ND.

ND should be asking them selves
1) why is ferritin low?
2) Is she converting properly t4 to t3 (alteration in d1 enzyme)
3) what factors are preventing this conversion from happening
4) Saliva test to rule out adrenal fatigue (if not done already)
5) check brain function so that one does cause too high norepinpherine with isocort (maybe you need cortef for a bit and not the whole extract)
6) Do they have nutritional densed and balanced diet
7) Where are vitamin d levels out
8) is there inflammation in the gut (leaky gut, celiac, gluten intolerance or sensitivity)
9) Proper sleep hygiene
10) proper digestion (pancreatic enyzme or HCL, bile acids needed)
11) methylation issues
12) estrogens/progesterone imbalances
13) Iodine deficiencies

[corky1121]

I’m back on the norepinephrine issue. You posted this:

5) check brain function so that one does cause too high norepinpherine with isocort (maybe you need cortef for a bit and not the whole extract)

Does isocort cause high NE. I was taking that too for awhile? And why use cortef, isn’t it the same thing as the isocort, just stronger?

[hardasnails1973]

@corky1121 1571 wrote:

I’m back on the norepinephrine issue. You posted this:

5) check brain function so that one does cause too high norepinpherine with isocort (maybe you need cortef for a bit and not the whole extract)

Does isocort cause high NE. I was taking that too for awhile? And why use cortef, isn’t it the same thing as the isocort, just stronger?

adrenal extracts will cause this why one has be be careful when using them ..

[corky1121]

Very interesting. Why do adrenal extracts cause this? So isocort is an adrenal extract and not the same thing as Cortef? I haven’t taken isocort for a few weeks, but I was supplementing a few doses of that stuff a day in place of HC doses.

[hardasnails1973]

Part of the adrenal gland produces dopamine, norephinepherine, adrenaline when you take the whole extract you also take this part of the gland. Cortef just contains the cortisol part and may be it has a little aldosterone like characterisitcs. This is what giving cortef in some instances helps to lower NE which is the back up for cortisol. When people are running on adrenaline they are running o low cortisol levels.

[corky1121]

Ok. Got it. That makes sense to me.

While have your attention. What do you know about trigger points? I’m thinking I should up my T3 dose to 15mcg because I’m still having pain in the triggers (knots) in the muscles in my back; mostly in the sacral area. Dr. Lowe says higher levels of T3 only seem to fix this problem. I can deal with a lot of my other symptoms, but this one and the anxiety I get from having pain is messing up my life.

I’ll be trying to get back to the gym and also work with a massage therapist that knows how to find those triggers in September. But for now, my thinking is I could up my dose. What do you think? I’m also down to 10mg of HC because I want to get off it for awhile and retest.

[allie]

@hardasnails1973 1566 wrote:

Ferritin is involved with thyroid signaling at the tissue level. Thyroid is needed to uptake ferritin from the intestinal tract. Slow release t3 is a sham. One can use plain old t3 and to the same job. With ferritin of 14 I be concerned to reason why. Have you had an upper endoscopy done because just recently we had a person that had inflammation in his esophagus that caused his ferritin levels as well as other iron marketers to drop. Your ND doe not understand the intricate understandings of the hormone system. Your ND if he is a true ND should be ruling out why ferritin is low rather then just say “it will work it self out in the end”. IMO that is just plain laziness like most traditional Dr’s. I be looking for another ND.

ND should be asking them selves
1) why is ferritin low?
2) Is she converting properly t4 to t3 (alteration in d1 enzyme)
3) what factors are preventing this conversion from happening
4) Saliva test to rule out adrenal fatigue (if not done already)
5) check brain function so that one does cause too high norepinpherine with isocort (maybe you need cortef for a bit and not the whole extract)
6) Do they have nutritional densed and balanced diet
7) Where are vitamin d levels out
8) is there inflammation in the gut (leaky gut, celiac, gluten intolerance or sensitivity)
9) Proper sleep hygiene
10) proper digestion (pancreatic enyzme or HCL, bile acids needed)
11) methylation issues
12) estrogens/progesterone imbalances
13) Iodine deficiencies

Yes, I am waiting to have the upper GI done for celiac.
I am trying with a balanced diet / eating liver, veggies, fruits and increased red meats
Avoiding the grains as much as possible

I had heavy bleeding and had my uterus ablated in 2004 . The following day got pneumonia and nearly died. Following in Oct. 2004 had a full hysto, removing everything.
My health has gone downhill from that point. I”m on estrogel and started on progesterone.

OH and BTW, the cost of the T3 for 50 – 7.5 mg tabs – $75.00
But, you know what ? If they help, I don’t care cuz I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired.

If I were to show you pictures of me before my ovaries were removed and now. You would not knwo that I am the say person. I was always at a healthy weight, Dr’s used to ask me if I was a dancer because I was in such good shape, no wrinkles. But alot of IBS and depression. Told in the 80’s i had no villa on the large intestine but never tested the small.
My gluten blood work came back normal. ( haha)
Here I sit, 5’2″ weighing 160 pounds, and used to weigh average of 125-127. Went from a B cup to a DD. My Dr’s explanation- that’s menopause!

And when you’re feeling as damn lousy as I am. It’s pretty hard to pick yourself up and try to exercise. I take my dog for walks, that’s my limit right now. Somedays it’s all I can do to force myself to get out of bed.

I wish I could find a dr but not able to find one that’s taking new patients and can’t afford to pay thousands of dollars to see a specialist.

That’s my dilemea.

[corky1121]

I hear you Allie. I’m not as bad off as you seem to be. But I also have not been the same since one ovary was taken. I am functional, but in the last year, I have gained 30lbs and because of pain issues I have every day and low energy working out the way I used to is gone. I’d go to the gym and try but I’d end up in pain and leaving. I’m going to try again when school starts to see what I can manage. I am hoping that since I’m getting my iron and D up and now take T3 maybe I can manage a bit more.

Hormone craziness does awful things to some of us, not all of us, but many of us. If you have things in life, like taking care of family, and working, etc. it can wreak havoc on you.

My husband compares me to a friend of ours who is a few years older than me. She started the change and was always cold for the beginning and now has hot flashes. She didn’t want to play poker with us on the weekends, she’d stay home and read. He said she seems okay and is not looking for all these doctors and taking HC and thyroid, etc. I said, she has no children, no husband, and lives alone. Hello! Her life is not filled with the same stresses mine is. And, I have only one child. For someone with 2-3 or more, and inlaws, and illnesses, and maybe working at the same time, it’s even worse.

So we are all different and our hormones affect us differently too.

I hope you feel better soon. I’m tired of being achy and tired too. But I know I’ll get past this. I keep saying that to myself, but I’ve been saying it to myself now for 3 years or more.

[Author]

Posts