Bodybuilders and BCAAS

[hardasnails1973]

Since being a bodybuilder for a long time I have always taken BCAAS at 10-20 grams a day. I am beginning to wonder if taken these could actually cause a person serotonin and dopamine levels to decline over the years. I have found alot of clincal research saids that they decrease tyrosine and serotonin levels as they compete with same receptors for transport. If this is the issue then how could one actually measure the impact that they may have had over the years. Would taking 5 htp and n actely tyrosine be able to circumvent this imbalance associated with amino acid transportation. My understanding is that 5htp is chemical different from l trytophan and I was wondering if n acetyl tyrosine would fall into the same category and also by pass this competition between amino acids. Could this be the missing link to why my levels are low and have never been able to replenish them selves. What blood serums can be used to check these imbalances?

[DrMariano2]

@hardasnails1973 108 wrote:

Since being a bodybuilder for a long time I have always taken BCAAS at 10-20 grams a day. I am beginning to wonder if taken these could actually cause a person serotonin and dopamine levels to decline over the years. I have found alot of clincal research saids that they decrease tyrosine and serotonin levels as they compete with same receptors for transport. If this is the issue then how could one actually measure the impact that they may have had over the years. Would taking 5 htp and n actely tyrosine be able to circumvent this imbalance associated with amino acid transportation. My understanding is that 5htp is chemical different from l trytophan and I was wondering if n acetyl tyrosine would fall into the same category and also by pass this competition between amino acids. Could this be the missing link to why my levels are low and have never been able to replenish them selves. What blood serums can be used to check these imbalances?

Branch Chain Amino Acids (BCAAs) are popular in body building as a simple way to increase protein intake. They generally are fairly complete sets of amino acids.

I see them as a problem when they are the primary source of amino acids in a person. This is because they are incomplete foods. They are useful as supplements but not as the primary meals.

One big problem is that Tryptophan (the precursor for 5-hydroxytryptophan, serotonin, and melatonin) is not well absorbed when it is part of a group of amino acids. They compete for absorption and Tryptophan loses out.

Tryptophan is better absorbed when there are carbohydrates present.

When high protein – low carbohydrate meals are the staple of one’s diet, tryptophan is not well absorbed. Lower serotonin levels may result.

Tyrosine, the precursor for dopamine and norepinephrine, on the other hand, is best absorbed in a high protein meal.

If one tends to have high protein, low carb meals, it would be best to take tryptophan supplements with carbs at a different time to help improve serotonin levels.

Which proteins one eats will also determine tryptophan absorption, and thus serotonin levels. Not every protein is a problem.

In one study, not every protein ingested caused a reduction in serotonin. There was an 8-fold range in serotonin production depending on the protein ingested. Soy-based protein, actually caused a rise in serotonin production. Lactalbumin – albumin obtained from the whey protein component of milk, actually increased serotonin production the most. Caseinate protein from milk caused a moderate reduction in serotoin. Zein protein from corn caused a marked decline in serotonin. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19454292?

Caseinate proteins are used in slower absorbing protein supplements. They wouldn’t be as healthy to use if serotonin production is desired.

[hardasnails1973]

@DrMariano 112 wrote:

Branch Chain Amino Acids (BCAAs) are popular in body building as a simple way to increase protein intake. They generally are fairly complete sets of amino acids.

I see them as a problem when they are the primary source of amino acids in a person. This is because they are incomplete foods. They are useful as supplements but not as the primary meals.

One big problem is that Tryptophan (the precursor for 5-hydroxytryptophan, serotonin, and melatonin) is not well absorbed when it is part of a group of amino acids. They compete for absorption and Tryptophan loses out.

Tryptophan is better absorbed when there are carbohydrates present.

When high protein – low carbohydrate meals are the staple of one’s diet, tryptophan is not well absorbed. Lower serotonin levels may result.

Tyrosine, the precursor for dopamine and norepinephrine, on the other hand, is best absorbed in a high protein meal.

If one tends to have high protein, low carb meals, it would be best to take tryptophan supplements with carbs at a different time to help improve serotonin levels.

Which proteins one eats will also determine tryptophan absorption, and thus serotonin levels. Not every protein is a problem.

In one study, not every protein ingested caused a reduction in serotonin. There was an 8-fold range in serotonin production depending on the protein ingested. Soy-based protein, actually caused a rise in serotonin production. Lactalbumin – albumin obtained from the whey protein component of milk, actually increased serotonin production the most. Caseinate protein from milk caused a moderate reduction in serotoin. Zein protein from corn caused a marked decline in serotonin. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19454292?

D
Caseinate proteins are used in slower absorbing protein supplements. They wouldn’t be as healthy to use if serotonin production is desired.

Dr M
If these where just taken around a work out at high dosages for a very short time could they still impact the over all daily serotonin and catecholamine production?

Hypothetical situation
BB has low urine serotonin and catecholamines metabolites. He take 10 gram BCAAS a day on work out days only. Could this prolong habits of doing this 5 days a week have resulted in the imbalances that were found in the urine test? If this is true then replacing the 5 htp and N- acetyl tyrosine would help to rebuild his neurotransmitters. Would it be also smart to check the catecholamine fractional by blood and to compare them with the urine to see if there is a problem with metabolizing them properly?

Let add another scenerio to the puzzle
BB using a low carb diet moderate protein and moderate fat diet along with BCAA before and after workout for a total of 10 grams a day. If this behavior has continued for several years could this low carb combined with high BCAAS intake made the person more vulernable to depression and also low serotonin and dopamine levels.

In order to correct brain chemistry both tyrosine and 5 htp would probably have to be taken to balance out brain chemistry. Would 5 htp and n acteyl tyrosine go around the problem of the BCAAS competing with the transport into the brain.

I have long wondered this as i was taking 20 grams of BCAAS when competing and they where taken before a meal, before and after cardio and weights caused me to have a serotonin depletion and a dopamine high. Funny I now recommend 5 htp to clients that are dieting. May be I should start taking my own advice.
This makes me wonder if these so called estrogen related issue I am having are very similar to low serotonin such as constipaiton, lack of motivation, and poor dreaming and that from years of low carb 100-150 a day and BCAAS caused a huge imbalance in my brain chemistry.
If one was taking BCAAS at 10 grams a day how much tyrosine and 5 htp be needed to off set this imbalance?

If one was going to start 5 htp would 100 mgs for 3-4 nights then if not clincal response increase it 200 mgs a night.
I felt good on 300 mgs but I did not know what was really doing what because I had so much going on at the time.
Now i stopped alot of the herbs and just use nutrients as my supplements.

[DrMariano2]

@hardasnails1973 166 wrote:

Dr M
If these where just taken around a work out at high dosages for a very short time could they still impact the over all daily serotonin and catecholamine production?

Hypothetical situation
BB has low urine serotonin and catecholamines metabolites. He take 10 gram BCAAS a day on work out days only. Could this prolong habits of doing this 5 days a week have resulted in the imbalances that were found in the urine test? If this is true then replacing the 5 htp and N- acetyl tyrosine would help to rebuild his neurotransmitters. Would it be also smart to check the catecholamine fractional by blood and to compare them with the urine to see if there is a problem with metabolizing them properly?

Let add another scenerio to the puzzle
BB using a low carb diet moderate protein and moderate fat diet along with BCAA before and after workout for a total of 10 grams a day. If this behavior has continued for several years could this low carb combined with high BCAAS intake made the person more vulernable to depression and also low serotonin and dopamine levels.

In order to correct brain chemistry both tyrosine and 5 htp would probably have to be taken to balance out brain chemistry. Would 5 htp and n acteyl tyrosine go around the problem of the BCAAS competing with the transport into the brain.

I have long wondered this as i was taking 20 grams of BCAAS when competing and they where taken before a meal, before and after cardio and weights caused me to have a serotonin depletion and a dopamine high. Funny I now recommend 5 htp to clients that are dieting. May be I should start taking my own advice.
This makes me wonder if these so called estrogen related issue I am having are very similar to low serotonin such as constipaiton, lack of motivation, and poor dreaming and that from years of low carb 100-150 a day and BCAAS caused a huge imbalance in my brain chemistry.
If one was taking BCAAS at 10 grams a day how much tyrosine and 5 htp be needed to off set this imbalance?

If one was going to start 5 htp would 100 mgs for 3-4 nights then if not clincal response increase it 200 mgs a night.
I felt good on 300 mgs but I did not know what was really doing what because I had so much going on at the time.
Now i stopped alot of the herbs and just use nutrients as my supplements.

Note that Tyrosine has no problems being absorbed with the other amino acids.

It is Tryptophan that has the problems. To optimize absorption of Tryptophan, it has to be taken with carbs and in as much isolation as possible from other aminoi acids.

If a person is taking BCAAs as a supplement to an otherwise healthy diet with adequate carbs, then serotonin production should not be a problem.

If a person was taking only BCAAs as their main source of amino acids/protein, then they would be in trouble. A few patients, for example, have been primarily eating protein shakes due to difficulty swallowing. Of course, they would be off in serotonin production and would have mood problems.

As long as side effects don’t occur – such as excessive loss of dopamine from excessive doses of 5-HTP, then 5-HTP is a good alternative to tryptophan.

Note that not all BCAAs impair tyrosine absorption. The Soy-based protein shakes actually result in an increase in serotonin production, not a lowering. Of course, a concern would be any mild-estrogen/phytoestrogen component. Phytoestrogens, themselves, can increase serotonin signaling duration, though not serotonin production itself usually.

Low serotonin, interestingly, is linked to increased aggressive behavior. Perhaps this helps the weight training part. But outside the gym, the higher stress levels that result from lower serotonin, are not as helpful..

[Author]

Posts