Home Forums DISCUSSION FORUMS SIGNALS hydrocortisone psychosis?

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  • #1124
    mylilcappi
    Member

    Hi,
    I have a tremendous problem on my hands and cannot quite figure it out. I was dx with secondary adrenal insuffiency in 08. Lack of ACTH.. confirmed by an ACTH stim test.
    I am hypo thyroid due to Grave’s and then RAI.
    I started taking HC in August. I titrated up the way that I should have. I did not need anymore than 20 mgs. Actually it was 17.5. I had energy, and they thyroid med was getting into my cells. I knew this as I have been dealing with hypo for 10 yrs before pituitary problems.

    Everything was just fine until one day in December and my whole life changed. I woke up with the most SEVERE anxiety that I have ever had in my life. I did not know what to do with myself. I could not concentrate, I could not get on the computer, i could not do anything. I walked from room to room constantly. I tried to lay down, but the anxiety and my mind would not let me. I kept taking it for fear of going into a crisis. I was told I was not on enough. I titrated up to 25 and same thing happened. So I titrated back down over a period of DAYS, and stayed at 17.5

    I would wake up around 5 a.m. and just lay there with this overwhelming anxiety. I would take my dose and do the same thing ALL DAY LONG. I could not take my child to school anymore nor pick him up. After this stuff wore off for the day, i would lay in the bed just staring at the walls. I was the living dead. I could not drive anymore.

    After about a month of THIS, I started to notice my MIND changing. I was having very strange thoughts that I cannot even explain. I never knew anyone could have thoughts like this. I also started having OCD thoughts that I knew what they were from all my researching. Keep in mind that I don’t have OCD, I am not bi-polar and have never had any kind of psychiatric disorder. I have never been on anti-depressants. There was never any need for them my whole life.
    I do have GAD (which I know some consider a psychiatric disorder) but was always tamed with Klonopin. Klonopin has never put me to sleep. It just simply took away the anxiety. I have never had any adverse side effects from K, that I know of. I am pretty in tune with my body. UNTIL this.

    So, January, Feb, March, This kept happening to me.. My surroundings started to look different to me. Everything in my brain, my thoughts and my emotions were so abnormal.
    This is really putting all of this mildly. This went on constantly. constantly.
    I made a conscience decision to taper off the HC. I ABSOLUTELY could not live like that anymore. It did not however make me mean.
    I slowly tapered off, still having those symptoms. I would get in the shower, and I was so weak, that I could just dry off, but not get dressed, and plop in the bed. HC also made my heart POUND. Everynight, POUNDING constantly. I would also lay in the bed and it felt like ice water was running through my veins. Not just cold, ice water in my veins.

    I have been off the HC since April. The thoughts have gone away. I am still weak, but not as weak as I was when I was on it. I’m weak now because I feel I need HC, but simply cannot take it. The thyroid med is not getting into my cells. I am simply swallowing a sugar pill. I am afraid to stop the thyroid med, because my thyroid is dead.
    My ACTH stim test was as follows.
    ACTH <5
    cortisol 3
    after 30 min. 23
    after 60 13
    Now I hear and read that steroid psychosis usually starts when you begin the steroid. This started several months after I started it.
    In may of this year my cortisol was 12.5 and ACTH 11
    In June my cortisol was 25.1 and ACTH 23. In one month.. lab error, I don’t know.
    I had a theory all along that the benzo and HC were interacting with each other and it took that long for them to decide they were going to wreak havoc on my body, mind and spirit. I have not found any clinical evidence to back this up.
    I’m very sorry for the long post, but I feel like I am going to die. I need that HC, and I cannot take it. there is no lesser of the two evils here if you will.
    Does anyone think that it could be the Klonopin? Does anyone think that I just react to HC this way even though my body needs it?
    Another poster on another forum stated that it did this to him as well. And he was not on any benzo or AD.. He told me that he took an anti-psychotic med, and it took it right away. However, I have those horrible physical symptoms as well. After it was out of my system for about 2 months, I decided to try it again.. I started all over and took 2.5 mgs. I could feel slightly (as it had been out of me for that length of time) that it was starting to happen all over again. WHY?
    As of today, I am experiencing APATHY.. not depression, apathy. And I’m also very weak. I still get strange emotional sensations that are hard to describe, however, almost unbearable. The whole thing has been almost unbearable. Well, it just is unbearable.

    I have also noticed that it took away my personality. It took away feelings that I should be feeling, but I don’t. I am emotionally paralyzed.

    thanks,
    Mamie

    #2479
    mylilcappi
    Member

    I forgot to add that I know there is something wrong with my adrenal glands. I lived with natural cortisol working properly for 47 years. I have no fight or flight, I don’t have those things I used to have when my adrenals were working properly. you just know these things..

    thanks,
    Mamie

    #2478
    garcia
    Member

    @mylilcappi 558 wrote:

    I forgot to add that I know there is something wrong with my adrenal glands. I lived with natural cortisol working properly for 47 years. I have no fight or flight, I don’t have those things I used to have when my adrenals were working properly. you just know these things..

    thanks,
    Mamie

    Hi, I just wanted to say that my experience mirrors yours exactly. I have severe adrenal fatigue (caused by infections), and a complete inability to respond to any kind of stress.

    I also do badly on h/c, yet off it I feel I need it. Its a hobson’s choice.

    Another poster on another forum stated that it did this to him as well. And he was not on any benzo or AD

    Me too. Never been on benzo’s or AD’s, yet my experiences have been very similar to yours. I’d be very interested to hear what Dr M has to say on this issue.

    #2462
    DrMariano2
    Participant

    Glucocorticoid Psychosis usually occurs at very high doses of Hydrocortisone or Prednisone. Usually, I would associate it with doses of Prednisone near 90 mg a day (450 mg of Hydrocortisone). Symptoms can include hallucinations, delusions, agitation, mania, severe depression, etc. At these doses, the adrenal cortex stops working. The dose of the glucocorticoid is so high, significant insulin resistance occurs. The supraphysiologic doses of glucocorticoid can start destroying brain cells, with prolonged treatment.

    At lower, sub-physiologic levels (e.g. hydrocortisone at or below 15-20 mg in women, 20-25 mg in men a day), then the dose doesn’t result in excessive overall cortisol levels. The cortisol levels are maintained by negative-feedback control from the brain.

    However, treatment of adding hydrocortisone does suppress or slow down adrenal cortex function. The negative feedback control senses the added hydrocortisone, reduces ACTH production, and slows down the adrenal cortex production of hydrocortisone AND THE OTHER SIGNALS (HORMONES) OF THE ADRENAL CORTEX. This can cause a deficit in the production of pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, aldosterone, testosterone, estradiol, etc. etc.

    It is this deficit of the other adrenal signals (hormones) that causes problems.

    Excessive norepinephrine signaling is a contributing factor for anxiety. Norepinephrine is the primary signal for stress. At high levels, it can cause fear (or irritability and anger). At higher levels it can cause paranoia and paranoid delusions, and stimulate hallucinations. At high levels, norepinephrine can also trigger obsessive-compulsive behavior.

    Progesterone, for example, is a very calming signal to the brain. Losing progesterone can lead to anxiety or worse in a nervous system that is already excessively producing norepinephrine.

    The loss of production of the other signals makes treatment with hydrocortisone monotherapy problematic. Many patients do not have a problem with hydrocortisone monotherapy. But some patients are very sensitive to the loss of the other hormones/signals. It is difficult to tell which ones are going to be sensitive – other than through trial and error in therapy.

    Generally, I would consider replacement of one or more additional adrenal hormones to make up the difference at the start of treatment.

    For example, when adding hydrocortisone, I would at minimum add an androgen, like DHEA. This would help reduce the risk of bone density loss, for example, from treatment with hydrocortisone alone, though the risk is low to begin with. DHEA also has calming effects on the brain – helping increase dopamine. It also is a precursor for testosterone and estradiol, helping support their production and effects on brain function as well as general health.

    With women and some men, I would consider adding progesterone. Progesterone is not only calming, it is a precursor for many of the other signals from the adrenal glands.

    I would also consider adding pregnenolone, particularly if memory and attention are affected.

    If needed, such as when lightheadedness is frequent, then treatment with aldosterone or Florinef (Fludrocortisone) may be necessary.

    Supporting adrenal function through hormone replacement therapy is complicated because so many hormones many need to be replaced to restore normal function and avoid problems.

    One of my colleagues, Thierry Hertoghe MD, is fond of saying one should consider replacing all the hormones at once (or at least optimizing all of them at once) when considering replacement of one.

    #2476
    BlackJack
    Member

    Dr. M whats your usual dose of Cortef for male patients?

    #2463
    DrMariano2
    Participant

    @BlackJack 569 wrote:

    Dr. M whats your usual dose of Cortef for male patients?

    If I was to use hydrocortisone, the usual adult male can take about 20-25 mg a day in divided doses. This would be a generally sub-replacement dose which does not fully suppress adrenal function. The liver will destroy about 40% of this before it goes into the general circulation.

    An excellent reference book to hormone treatments is Thierry Hertoghe MD’s The Hormone Handbook. https://ucprx.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=20&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6&vmcchk=1&Itemid=6

    This would be the book to refer to when it comes to dosing of cortisol and other hormones.

    Note that if one is considering using hydrocortisone (Cortef), then one has to also consider adding the other adrenal signals (hormones) such as pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, aldosterone, testosterone, estradiol.

    When one does not also consider adding one or more of the other adrenal signals when one is adding hydrocortisone, then one will often develop problems with treatment.

    Note that when a person has low cortisol production because of hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis dysregulation (which includes conditions previously referred to as adrenal fatigue), then addressing these problems may be more important than supporting adrenal output. Addressing the cause of the low adrenal output would more directly treat the problem – if the problem can be found. Often, for example, nutritional deficiencies are a cause of adrenal problems. Mental health and stresses are other causes. Etc. etc.

    #2480
    mylilcappi
    Member

    @DrMariano 568 wrote:

    Glucocorticoid Psychosis usually occurs at very high doses of Hydrocortisone or Prednisone. Usually, I would associate it with doses of Prednisone near 90 mg a day (450 mg of Hydrocortisone). Symptoms can include hallucinations, delusions, agitation, mania, severe depression, etc. At these doses, the adrenal cortex stops working. The dose of the glucocorticoid is so high, significant insulin resistance occurs. The supraphysiologic doses of glucocorticoid can start destroying brain cells, with prolonged treatment.

    At lower, sub-physiologic levels (e.g. hydrocortisone at or below 15-20 mg in women, 20-25 mg in men a day), then the dose doesn’t result in excessive overall cortisol levels. The cortisol levels are maintained by negative-feedback control from the brain.

    However, treatment of adding hydrocortisone does suppress or slow down adrenal cortex function. The negative feedback control senses the added hydrocortisone, reduces ACTH production, and slows down the adrenal cortex production of hydrocortisone AND THE OTHER SIGNALS (HORMONES) OF THE ADRENAL CORTEX. This can cause a deficit in the production of pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, aldosterone, testosterone, estradiol, etc. etc.

    It is this deficit of the other adrenal signals (hormones) that causes problems.

    Excessive norepinephrine signaling is a contributing factor for anxiety. Norepinephrine is the primary signal for stress. At high levels, it can cause fear (or irritability and anger). At higher levels it can cause paranoia and paranoid delusions, and stimulate hallucinations. At high levels, norepinephrine can also trigger obsessive-compulsive behavior.

    Progesterone, for example, is a very calming signal to the brain. Losing progesterone can lead to anxiety or worse in a nervous system that is already excessively producing norepinephrine.

    The loss of production of the other signals makes treatment with hydrocortisone monotherapy problematic. Many patients do not have a problem with hydrocortisone monotherapy. But some patients are very sensitive to the loss of the other hormones/signals. It is difficult to tell which ones are going to be sensitive – other than through trial and error in therapy.

    Generally, I would consider replacement of one or more additional adrenal hormones to make up the difference at the start of treatment.

    For example, when adding hydrocortisone, I would at minimum add an androgen, like DHEA. This would help reduce the risk of bone density loss, for example, from treatment with hydrocortisone alone, though the risk is low to begin with. DHEA also has calming effects on the brain – helping increase dopamine. It also is a precursor for testosterone and estradiol, helping support their production and effects on brain function as well as general health.

    With women and some men, I would consider adding progesterone. Progesterone is not only calming, it is a precursor for many of the other signals from the adrenal glands.

    I would also consider adding pregnenolone, particularly if memory and attention are affected.

    If needed, such as when lightheadedness is frequent, then treatment with aldosterone or Florinef (Fludrocortisone) may be necessary.

    Supporting adrenal function through hormone replacement therapy is complicated because so many hormones many need to be replaced to restore normal function and avoid problems.

    One of my colleagues, Thierry Hertoghe MD, is fond of saying one should consider replacing all the hormones at once (or at least optimizing all of them at once) when considering replacement of one.

    Dr. M,
    You mention adding DHEA. My Dhea is high. 237 (0-150)
    I don’t know why, but it’s looking like thank can’t take that.
    thanks

    #2464
    DrMariano2
    Participant

    @mylilcappi 576 wrote:

    Dr. M,
    You mention adding DHEA. My Dhea is high. 237 (0-150)
    I don’t know why, but it’s looking like thank can’t take that.
    thanks

    If DHEA is already high, it doesn’t need to be added.

    #2481
    mylilcappi
    Member

    Dr. M,
    So basically you are saying, that possibly the reason why HC does this to my MIND is because I don’t have enough progesterone, estradiol, etc. And If these hormones were where they are supposed to be, that HC would not do this to me? Trying to understand here..

    thanks….

    #2465
    DrMariano2
    Participant

    @mylilcappi 579 wrote:

    Dr. M,
    So basically you are saying, that possibly the reason why HC does this to my MIND is because I don’t have enough progesterone, estradiol, etc. And If these hormones were where they are supposed to be, that HC would not do this to me? Trying to understand here..

    thanks….

    The addition of hydrocortisone to the body causes a reduction in ACTH production which then causes the adrenals to slow down production of their hormones.

    This causes a deficiency in the hormones other than hydrocortisone. All of the adrenal cortex hormones (except aldosterone and to a certain extent DHEA), are produced all at once in response to ACTH. Since ACTH is reduced by the addition of exogenous hydrocortisone, one can expect some deficiency in these other hormones – progesterone, DHEA, testosterone, estradiol, estrone, androstenedione, androstenediol, pregnenolone, etc. etc.

    So the question would be what would happen if a person has a deficiency in these other hormones? This is particularly true when a person is under high stress, has anxiety, etc. During the time such a person is having anxiety, their adrenal cortex output is expected to respond to stress signaling by outputting even more DHEA, progesterone, testosterone, etc. etc. The lack of such a response because the adrenal output is reduced by hydrocortisone can be significant.

    Realize that from my perspective, the adrenal glands are part of the mind. Their output fully and directly affects mental function.

    Note that I assume you were taking Hydrocortisone in divided doses. When too high a single dose of hydrocortisone occurs – such as perhaps 20 mg all at once in some people – then the adrenal output is shut down for that time.

    #2482
    mylilcappi
    Member

    Thanks Dr. M.
    What baffles me the most is why it worked for over 4 months at a consistent dose and then all these terribe mind and body symptoms starting happening. Just overnight.
    No, I never took 20 mgs all at once. I spread it out over the day. And during those months I could tell they thyroid was getting into me cells..

    #2483
    mylilcappi
    Member

    Also I am very interested in many topics that include the nervous system…

    How is the world would I go about seeing if my nervous system needs attention.. What kinds of tests, what kinds of doctors? As you can probably tell, I’m desperate..

    so you don’t think the klonopin interfered with the HC enough to give me those serious side effects.. especially my MIND.

    thanks again…………

    #2466
    DrMariano2
    Participant

    @mylilcappi 601 wrote:

    Thanks Dr. M.
    What baffles me the most is why it worked for over 4 months at a consistent dose and then all these terribe mind and body symptoms starting happening. Just overnight.
    No, I never took 20 mgs all at once. I spread it out over the day. And during those months I could tell they thyroid was getting into me cells..

    AHA.

    When things are working well then something suddenly changes, the something else happened.

    For example, psychiatrists have often talked about how antidepressants somehow “poop out”. That is, they stop working after a time of working well.

    I don’t believe they DO NOT poop out at all. I believe the antidepressant was working the same way all alone. However, something else happened so that the person would again become depressed. For example, perhaps thyroid hormone went down due to aging, perhaps the person’s nutrition went off and they developed B12 deficiency or iron deficiency. In these cases, the antidepressant is doing the same job it has always had. But the person’s body changed. This change is what caused the person to become ill again.

    So the question would be, if a person who has adrenal insufficiency and hypothyroidism is doing well for a time on treatment of both conditions, what else happened in the body to cause the person to worsen.

    Winter, itself, is a huge stress. Low environmental temperature is a huge physiologic stress. This stress is enough to cause a person to become depressed, anxious, or even manic. And as the weather warms, a person gets better again.

    However, outside of the weather, the problem is, what else is missing that would cause a person to topple down and worsen in condition.

    For example, with an anxious person, and more stress, the lack of additional adrenal supportive treatments other than hydrocortisone, can worsen the person’s response to a significant stress.

    For example, when a person runs out of B-vitamins or other nutrients, then thyroid hormone stops working and a person could worsen. With cortisol onboard, T4 to T3 conversion could improve. But then without adequate nutrition, this actually can be a bad situation since more thyroid hormone can worsen adrenal function or cause further deficiencies of nutrients since they would be used up faster. Thus the cortisol dose may have to be lowered if taking this into account. Thus, nutritional status is very important to assess.

    #2467
    DrMariano2
    Participant

    @mylilcappi 602 wrote:

    Also I am very interested in many topics that include the nervous system…

    How is the world would I go about seeing if my nervous system needs attention.. What kinds of tests, what kinds of doctors? As you can probably tell, I’m desperate..

    so you don’t think the klonopin interfered with the HC enough to give me those serious side effects.. especially my MIND.

    thanks again…………

    Usually a psychiatrist would be the one addressing the functional side of the nervous system.

    #2473

    @DrMariano 604 wrote:

    Usually a psychiatrist would be the one addressing the functional side of the nervous system.

    Many people get HC from over seas and self administered it with out Dr supervision. I had one client from over seas when verified through saliva, blood, and urine that the HC he was using was fake. I suggested that he take the HC one hour before the cortisol am draw to see if it was going to spike to normal range. The results were surprising to him, but to myself it would it make most logical sense. The clients salvia, blood, urine test were border line Addison’s as his levels were barely registering. I suggested that he goto the nearest endocronologist to get properly evaluated. If you are using over seas meds or even generic HC it may not be suitable for your body. I have had several people you were given generic HC when cortef was called in by the Dr. When they switched to cortef they started to feel better. For some people generic meds just do not work and can end up making people worse.

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